Day 105 - 16 Mar 95 - Page 07
1 occurs in the production of minced beef and burgers; is
2 that correct?
3 A. I have to discuss with you at some length what we mean
4 by "inherent cross-contamination" or what we mean by
5 "contamination".
6
7 Q. Rather than separate pieces and kept separate pieces of
8 meat, the burger production requires and the minced beef
9 requires the mixing up of large amounts of cuts and
10 grinding it up, grinding the surface into the middle, and
11 you would recognise, would you not, that -----
12
13 MR. JUSTICE BELL: I think you have thrown him with the "cross",
14 you see. (To the witness): What is being put to you is
15 that if you have food products which are made of minced
16 meat, the risk of contamination, particularly to what is
17 the inside of the patty, and the spreading of organisms
18 throughout a mix may present risks which your steak, or
19 something like that, with surface contamination does not
20 present, and may also present risks related to inadequate
21 cooking which are not so apparent when it is just the
22 surface of the meat which may be contaminated with
23 pathogenic micro organisms?
24 A. Yes, it is always necessary to cook meat thoroughly,
25 and if the micro organisms are mixed in with the rest of
26 the meat, clearly, the ones in the middle need more cooking
27 time. But, given correct temperature control, it is by no
28 means certain that there are any more micro organisms just
29 because the surface ones have been spread around in the
30 meat.
31
32 MR. MORRIS: Yes, but not only spread around in terms of inside
33 the volume of that particular patty or whatever, but is it
34 not also the case that if one carcass or one cut is
35 contaminated, then by batching that with 200 or 300 other
36 cuts and grinding the whole lot up, you are guaranteeing
37 that the contamination will be widely spread amongst
38 possibly tens of thousands of individual food portions?
39
40 MR. JUSTICE BELL: What do you say about that?
41 A. Well, I say, yes, whenever you mix products, you are
42 going to get a mixture of whatever is there. I must say
43 that that is a general comment which applies to a small
44 butcher's shop or a large organisation. I must add that it
45 is important to distinguish, particularly seeing that we
46 have talked and may well talk again about HACCP because it
47 is so crucial, that it is vital to distinguish between a
48 hazard which may be theoretical, it may be real, it may be
49 all of those things, and distinguish between that and the
50 risk that is involved in that hazard. In other words, a
51 hazard could be extremely low risk. I have reservations
52 about mixing the terms -- never mind the meat --
53 "contamination", "hazard" or "risk" because, in my view,
54 it is extremely important to bear in mind the real risk
55 that is involved.
56
57 Now, to return to "bulking", I think that is the phrase
58 that would be used in a large organisation, bulking meat
59 together clearly -- to repeat myself -- mixes into that
60 bulk container whatever is present in the component parts.
