Day 165 - 27 Sep 95 - Page 07
1 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Thank you for the correction. You say that
2 in the gaps, because I am not minded to doubt what
3 Mr. Rampton has said to us, since he has said it in open
4 court, that he has personally checked and he has not cut
5 out any reference to you or any reference to McDonalds.
6
7 MS. STEEL: I have something else to say on that particular
8 point.
9
10 MR. JUSTICE BELL: But working on that basis at the moment, you
11 want parts of these notes which do not relate to you, do
12 not relate to Mr. Morris, do not relate to McDonald's,
13 therefore, must relate to other subjects and other people
14 because you think you may be able successfully to challenge
15 them and, therefore, cast doubt on the reliability of the
16 evidence of the witness.
17
18 Such matters are peripheral in the extreme, it seems to me
19 at the moment. They are right on the horizon if they are
20 not over it; whereas if I am looking at peripheral matters
21 to see who at the end of the day -- I am not talking about
22 lying at the moment -- just whose evidence I find the more
23 reliable. I might, for instance, be more interested, if
24 you look at page 1 of Mr. Clare's statement, paragraph 3,
25 second sentence: "Helen Steel took control of the meeting
26 and organised the agenda".
27
28 MS. STEEL: Yes, I have dealt with that in my statement as well.
29
30 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Then page 2, paragraph 6: "Helen Steel took
31 the minutes of this meeting." At the moment I do not know
32 whether that is challenged or not.
33
34 MS. STEEL: Firstly, I would also -----
35
36 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Those are colateral matters but not
37 peripheral, I would suggest.
38
39 MS. STEEL: Firstly, I would also argue that the blanked out
40 parts of notes may assist us in remembering whether or not
41 we were present at such meetings. It would just help us to
42 assist with the recall of what happened at certain meetings
43 and, therefore, whether or not we knew we were there.
44
45 Secondly, I have disputed his interpretation of what
46 happened then. I do not particularly want to go down the
47 road of going through every dispute that we have with what
48 they said because, not having come on to this part of the
49 case, I have not done thorough preparations on it. But it
50 is clear that I do dispute what is being said.
51
52 MR. JUSTICE BELL: I said a moment ago, I might understand --
53 Mr. Rampton might complain about it -- that in the wealth
54 of work in this case you have not got round yet to
55 producing a witness statement which deals with these
56 matters. The only point I am raising at the moment is (so
57 that you can deal with it, and I will shut up in a moment
58 and you can deal with it) that even were it not for
59 Thorpe, I am not going to be very attracted by the idea of
60 letting you cross-examine on what might have been said by
