Day 285 - 23 Oct 96 - Page 16

     
     1        the questionnaires.  So Edward Oakley on day 64, page 3,
     2        line 45, said that the policy meant finished product, that
     3        they bought their finished products locally, and he is the
     4        purchasing manager for Northern Europe.
     5
     6        But Dr. Gonzalez on day 68, page 6, line 27, said the
     7        product is beef in general.  And these are the two most
     8        senior people, probably, dealing with this issue in
     9        terms --  well, Dr. Gonzalez on a global level and Edward
    10        Oakley for Northern Europe.  So they do not seem to know
    11        what it means, and indeed we have heard that McDonald's in
    12        the UK have received beef from not only European countries
    13        but also from Brazil.  And if I remember rightly with
    14        David Walker, he was talking about beef imports from the
    15        USA or Canada as well.  I am not a hundred percent sure on
    16        that.  I have not had a chance to check.  And I think that
    17        is raw materials.
    18
    19        We have imports from Australia, Taiwan, Brazil to
    20        Switzerland, to McDonald's suppliers in Switzerland, that
         Dr. Gonzalez had seen.  Japan was getting beef from USA,
    22        Australia and New Zealand.  It was Dr. Gonzalez, day 67,
    23        page 50, line 22.  And these are just examples.  Dr.
    24        Gonzalez said he had never heard of Brazilian beef
    25        being...  Well, I think he changed his evidence as it went
    26        along.  I am not quite sure, I have not got all the
    27        references on this.  Hopefully, you may have made notes
    28        that would reveal that.
    29
    30        But I think his initial reaction was, there was no
    31        Brazilian beef exported anywhere else for McDonald's use.
    32        In fact, that would, of course, correspond to the letter
    33        in 1982 which recognised that the export of Brazilian beef
    34        was a causal factor in destruction of Amazonian forest and
    35        rainforest, Amazonian forest.  Unbeknown to Dr. Gonzalez,
    36        Brazilian beef was exported to the UK the following year
    37        after that letter was written, saying that they had a
    38        policy not to do it.
    39
    40        And this is where we get to a problem with McDonald's
         witnesses and hearsay, because Dr. Gonzalez gives evidence
    42        that it could not have happened, he had never heard
    43        anything like that.  But, for a start, he is relying on
    44        other people informing him and, secondly, I can't remember
    45        the date that he started work, Mr. Rampton can correct me
    46        if I am wrong, but something like 1991.  I might be wrong
    47        on that.  It seems to me, this is a general comment, that
    48        McDonald's witnesses are keen to state grand points as
    49        fact, and state them to the public as well, when they
    50        cannot even possibly know if they are true or not.  Of
    51        course, if they make an admission, then that is highly
    52        relevant. 
    53
    54   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Yes, can I just make one point.  It is not
    55        to gainsay what you are saying here.  Admissions against
    56        interest are admissible.  One still has to judge whether
    57        they are true.  It may be more likely that they are true
    58        because it may be said, as a general principle, people do
    59        not admit things against their interests unless they are
    60        true.  But that is not the answer to the question every