Day 290 - 30 Oct 96 - Page 10

     
     1        which is contemplated in Charlesworth in the House of
     2        Lords.
     3
     4   MR. RAMPTON:   My Lord, I can help a bit.  I cannot find the
     5        particular reference at the moment, but I will come back to
     6        it.
     7
     8   MR. JUSTICE BELL:   It comes from Lord Diplock's speech.
     9
    10   MR. RAMPTON:   Yes, but there is specific authority that simply
    11        because words might be regarded by a minority group within
    12        the population as being defamatory, it is not the test, one
    13        has to ignore them.
    14
    15   MR. JUSTICE BELL:   I would like you to refer me to it in due
    16        course just for absolute certainty, Mr. Rampton.  I think
    17        that is inevitable from what Lord Diplock said - was it in
    18        Lewis and the Daily Telegraph - and certainly what was said
    19        in Charlesworth, if I remember it correctly.
    20
    MR. RAMPTON:   Certainly.  It will probably be Lords Reid and
    22        Devlin.
    23
    24   MR. JUSTICE BELL:   What applies to meaning seems to me also to
    25        apply to whether the meaning is defamatory.
    26
    27   MR. RAMPTON:   Oh, plainly, yes, because what you have to do is
    28        lower the estimation of the plaintiff in the estimation of
    29        right thinking members of society in general.
    30
    31   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  It is because you may have misunderstood what
    32        I was trying to say, and maybe it is my fault for not
    33        expressing it clearly, that I have interrupted you, but,
    34        quite frankly, I do not think you need bother about it,
    35        because I am going to find the meaning is more serious than
    36        that.  And then the question is, considering all the
    37        evidence I have heard, and at the moment I am inclined to
    38        think particularly of the evidence with regard to chickens,
    39        is it substantially justified.
    40
    MS. STEEL:   Can I just say a final thing on this point, which
    42        is that you have said that it may be that the ordinary
    43        person accepts that a certain amount of suffering is
    44        involved in the life of animals reared for food, the
    45        implication of that being that they consider that it is
    46        necessary to have animals reared for food, and the whole
    47        point about this leaflet is to express the view that it is
    48        not necessary for us to eat meat, and if we persuade people
    49        of that view, then they will recognise that the suffering
    50        of animals is completely unnecessary. 
    51 
    52   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I know that.  I honestly do not think that 
    53        can help me as to meaning.  At the moment I am having
    54        difficulty with Mr. Morris' argument about the purpose of
    55        the leaflet, save in so far as it goes to motive.  I
    56        understand that absolutely.  It may help me as to motive.
    57        But at the moment that is the limit of it.  The leaflet
    58        means whatever I decide it means, and, having decided what
    59        it means, I then have to decide whether that is
    60        defamatory.  There we are, anyway.