Day 295 - 06 Nov 96 - Page 09
1 The point which you touched on yesterday about the greater
2 the load, the more likely that the pathogenic bacteria will
3 be crowded out by other bacteria, if that be true -- and I
4 don't believe that is the case, I believe that it does
5 not mean to say that all the bacteria are pathogenic, but
6 it is an indication of contamination, poor handling or
7 whatever -- but if that be the case, then the smaller the
8 contamination, the more dangerous potentially the product,
9 which would completely turn upside down not only -- well,
10 it would turn upside down all of the complete drift of
11 expert opinion and the whole procedural basis for the
12 educational testing that McKeys do and everyone else does,
13 and that to me is inconceivable.
14
15 If it was true, it would mean that their testing is
16 completely worthless and, in fact, they do not do any
17 effective testing whatsoever in slaughter houses and in the
18 process plants because they do not seriously try to
19 identify the pathogenic bacteria that is the problem. So
20 the fact -----
21
22 MR. JUSTICE BELL: I was just putting it forward as something
23 of an irony. I do not think it helps solve the problem of
24 the risk of food poisoning, because it depends what the
25 carcass, or whatever, is contaminated with. It may not be
26 contaminated with much food spoilage bacteria, but it may
27 be contaminated, a particular carcass, with a lot of food
28 poisoning organisms.
29
30 The feeling I got at the end of the day, you use the word
31 'educational', but it seemed to me that a lot of the
32 testing is done not so much in the hope that you will
33 actually find, or certainly not in the expectation that you
34 will find food poisoning organisms if you do it; hence the
35 point about how much testing is done for E.Coli 0157, but
36 because it may be a guide to whether your supplier is being
37 sloppy or not about hygiene generally.
38
39 MR. MORRIS: Right.
40
41 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Was that not the picture at the end of the
42 day?
43
44 MR. MORRIS: I think that could be the final, the only
45 justification that is left, because the other
46 justifications do not seem to hold up under examination.
47 So even, as you say, the educational value is doubtful in
48 terms of identifying of pathogenic bacteria, but ----
49
50 MR. JUSTICE BELL: I would just like to complete my note.
51 (Pause) Yes. I certainly was not meaning to indicate
52 yesterday that I thought you could rely on spoilage
53 bacteria acting as antigens to food poisoning organisms.
54
55 MR. MORRIS: Right. I think what we have demonstrated, despite
56 considerable efforts by the Plaintiffs to counter, is that
57 the contamination in the raw material up to the store point
58 is multiplied at every stage and is a risk which leaves the
59 issue of the potential for undercooking in McDonald's
60 systems.
