VERY IMPORTANT !
Wednesday, 08-Dec-1999 01:55:18

193.158.173.46 writes:

Just got mail from our cipher-friend, he confirmed my thoughts :

Usually, you take the plaintext AB
A
B

and get (you know how) :

C
D

*AND* then you do the same with CD
and get :
E
F

Still with me ? Well, in our actual double playfair THE LAST STEP IS MISSING ! (Would call this 1+1/2 playfair)
To say it again : the only difference to the normal playfair is that you have TWO squares and you get your cipher-text with
taking the first cipher-letter from square one and the second from square two ! (AB --> CD NOT --> EF). Did I talk clearly - If not
: please ask again.

Nevertheless, dear cipher-friend : you say 'making the task easier' - correct, it's a lot easier now, but you should have mentioned
this at the start of the show ! (else it is twice as hard) - we learn, you learn :)

regards

the seeker

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Re: VERY IMPORTANT ! addendum
Wednesday, 08-Dec-1999 02:37:41

193.158.164.115 writes:

to make it clear :

of course you gotta find the correct 'period' as very first step - this is the other difference to 'normal' Playfair !

The Seeker

***********************

Re: Re: VERY IMPORTANT ! addendum
Wednesday, 08-Dec-1999 09:46:26

195.29.253.68 writes:

Just want to make clear. If your plaintext pair is AB then your ciphered-pair would be CD like so

---A- --C--
----- -----
---D- --B--
----- -----
----- -----

--a---a-

**************************

Also
Wednesday, 08-Dec-1999 10:05:37

195.29.253.68 writes:

Sorry, format did not turn out quite right above.

---A- --C--
----- -----
---D- --B--
----- -----
----- -----

:Well, in our actual double playfair THE LAST STEP IS MISSING ! (Would call this 1+1/2 playfair)

Considering the NOVA contest's second keyword wasn't even among the possibilities I should call that Double PlayUNFair.

:To say it again : the only difference to the normal playfair is that you have TWO squares and you get your cipher-text with
taking the first cipher-letter from square one and the second from square two ! (AB --> CD NOT --> EF). Did I talk clearly - If not
: please ask again.
Nevertheless, dear cipher-friend : you say 'making the task easier' - correct, it's a lot easier now, but you should have mentioned
this at the start of the show ! (else it is twice as hard) - we learn, you learn :)

You are perhaps correct. As I wrote in my email, I was trying to split the difference between too easy and too hard.
To be honest though, I don't think anyone else picked up on it as they, at least publicly, were trying to match UY to either DS or
SX.
But the two keywords ARE from the choices given. If you don't feel that my mix of knowns and unknowns is fair then I am
entirely to blame.

--a---a-

***********************

Let's pass the 'judgement' to the cipher-team :) (n/t) (The Seeker) (08-Dec-1999 10:11:45)

***********************

Re: Let's pass the 'judgement' to the cipher-team :)
Wednesday, 08-Dec-1999 17:28:57

216.58.8.72 writes:

Greetings

Well That is a lot of clues. I'm willing to have a go at it even though it is different and who is to say that it might not at one time
have been used similarly to this.
We still need the period which will be a challenge and perhaps that is much better because when we get a real double playfair
where we need to find the perion, it is more difficult as it is enciphered twice. This will help us practice that.
So I'm still in.

Princess

************************

I'm still in too of course :)
Wednesday, 08-Dec-1999 17:53:47

194.78.233.80 writes:

Hi Princess,

regarding the period, can you have a look at my post below ('am I soooo wrong ?'). Thanks.

Respects,
Laurent

PS : no need to hurry as i go in bed right now :)
See you tomorrow.

Laurent

************************+

I'm in
Wednesday, 08-Dec-1999 19:44:35

207.230.57.209 writes:

but at a loss. I did sheets for periods 15,16,17,&23, but nothing seems to strike my fancy. The single encrypt means that
reversals are more likely, but without a crib to get possibles, I don't know. Maybe looking for likely places for stop?
Any advice or pointer appreciated,

Dan

**************************

me too
Wednesday, 08-Dec-1999 23:24:23

203.57.68.13 writes:

The rules may change but the game does not. I am still in.

Dan

Even with only a single encrypt the likelihood of finding a repeat of the word stop are very slim.

This is due to the fact that the cipher text for stop is still purely dependant on the letters which fall either below or above it.

for example:

row1 STOP STOP
row2 ABCD DCBA

Will both produce two completly different ciphertexts.

Of course this is only my perception of it and I could well be wrong.

ShADe

***************************

you're correct, I'm just desparately searching for a handhold (n/t) (Dan) (09-Dec-1999 00:03:17)

**************************

Re: am desperately tired but in all this day long
Thursday, 09-Dec-1999 01:43:46

216.224.149.113 writes:

although I have not drawn every singel matrix known to man i think I have probaly checked most of them 3 times and now can't
see any more.
I have this sneaking feeling somewhere in my depths that both matrixs may be both Blue Diamonds left and right.......just a
thought.

but am simply to tired to go on...cya all tommorow. Shade check your ICQ I sent you matrix file...can't complete it...gives u
idea of what I meant by 16 possibilities per keyword for ech corner and backwards......maybe u just might get it with that
GREAT program u wrote by the time i awake....good luck!
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

jeff

***************************

Could you please clarify?
Thursday, 09-Dec-1999 03:13:40

203.57.68.10 writes:

I don't know your name yet but I shall soon ;-)

Could you please clarify this sentence?

I am fairly sure I understand it but just want re-assurance. You say DS or SX, this I can see but the message must if ending
with the phrase 'message ends' have either an 'x' or 's' where the Y is in the cipher text. You are not saying here that this is not
the case are you?
I don't suspect you are but my entire system is based around this fact.

Thanks

ShADe

******************************

through a crystal, darkly
Thursday, 09-Dec-1999 08:14:19

207.230.57.194 writes:

The Y is either a S or a X, but the U can be a D,E,G,S,or an A. I count seven combinations(some ruled out).

Dan

******************************

Re: through a crystal, darkly
Thursday, 09-Dec-1999 23:51:00

203.57.68.13 writes:

Hi Dan

I don't know how you are doing on this but thanks for the response. It is good to know that the Y is an x or an s otherwise it
would be back to the drawing board for me.

ShADe

*****************************

without the other set I can't figure out how to check the diagrams (n/t) (Dan) (10-Dec-1999 01:01:01)

*********************************

Begging for HELP
Friday, 10-Dec-1999 01:25:50

207.230.57.209 writes:

I'm confused. If you assume

x
U

z
Y

Does that mean that x & U are in the same row in the left grid, and that z & Y are in the same row in the second?

Any light would be appreciated
Dan

****************************

Re: Begging for HELP
Friday, 10-Dec-1999 01:49:38

216.224.145.245 writes:

gotta go to sleep
and I almost had this thing done when the whole page just disappeared...all text was erased!!!

am not sure what u mean above Dan

to encript XU to ZY???

X.... ....Z
..... .....
..... .....
..... .....
Y.... ....U

still in rectangel but from two different matrix
or another case might be on same row as u mentioned above which might be closer to what u are asking?

Y X.. ..Z U
..... .....
..... .....
..... .....
..... .....

XU ==ZY take letter to the LEFT of ....

not sure if this is what u meant....but I gotta go sleep.....

good luck and until tommorow may all your puzzels be puzzeled over in a puzzeling manner and all your major puzzlots turn inti
puzzelets

what?
what?
what?

jeff

**********************************

A glimmer of light...train?
Friday, 10-Dec-1999 02:18:09

207.230.57.217 writes:

I was just trying to figure out how the plaintext and ciphertext were related physically on the grids. The U and Y are from the
cipher, the x and z represent plaintext. Are the ciphers drawn from the other grid, or the same one, that the plaintext is in?

--x-- --U--
----- -----
----- ----- ?
--Y-- --z--
----- -----
or is it
--x-- --Y--
----- -----
----- ----- ?
--U-- --z--
----- -----

If I can look for x and U/Y or z and U/Y, then I can start figuring out how the matrices are set up, and more importantly, which
ones aren't even close. I'm already fairly sure the message is odd, and that the period is either 15 or 17, but I need to know how
the matrices are set, so I can rule out possibilities. Not having the keyword start in the upper left (or some preset) square is
hosing me, too many ways it could be written. The mystery writer traded six ways to build the matrix for eighteen others.

Back to the grid(dle)

Dan

****************************

a candle
Friday, 10-Dec-1999 02:22:15

62.156.30.107 writes:

Hi Dan,

following the Double-Playfair-rules : your first square is the right way to make the cipher-digram . But don't forget : it does NOT
have to be a rectangle ! (I am talking in general, not for this x-z-u-y-thing !)

the seeker

********************************

I've checked
Friday, 10-Dec-1999 04:26:29

207.230.57.213 writes:

All eighteen of the blue diamond matrices I could come up with. I was thinking that the inside letters

ssage
XWNWU
endsx
BDWMY

eX,nW,dN,sW,&xU would have to be in the same row and/or column, but when I started checking them, they would match for
xU, but then not sW(in the odd case). Where is my thinking wrong? I thought I had allowed for horizontal/vertical exceptions by
not being strict on where they were row/column, as long as they matched one or the other. I even checked period 1&7 on the off
chance, but they didn't go.
Guess I'll sleep on it.

Dan

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