Road to nowhere .. revisited
Wednesday, 10-Nov-1999 03:02:05
193.158.164.91 writes:
Hi Laurent,
your way HAS to be the correct one. Did not check all posibilities yet, but if you did make no mistake at encoding, there
could be another possibility :
they say, the controllers can't encode the message (and they know his keys), so maybe some lines are changed ? What I
mean is, that from the 5 lines we have got, only the last (starting with TF and ending with XX) is definitely at the correct
position. Maybe (for example) the first line (VY TE ..) is the second one ?
Gonna check this out .. later
the seeker
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First thoughts
Wednesday, 10-Nov-1999 06:55:02
129.234.4.10 writes:
I hoped that this would take only half an hour or so, but the lack of an easy plaintext has made it harder ;)
OK. How to solve Playfairs? You try to find a plaintext ciphertext pair and reconstruct the matrix. Note there are 3 ways to do
this, either rectangle, horizontal or vertical. e.g. cipher AB plaintext CD gives possibilities:
A C
D B
or
AC BD
or
A
C
B
D
by finding pairs with common letters, we can try to patch together the matrices.
My first attempt was to guess the plaintext word at the beginning to be REENFORCEMENTS. But if you try to solve for the
matrix, you will find it is inconsistent.
The best way to go probably is to brute force the 'ice weasels' text on possible offsets to check for consistency. I don't have
time to do this myself, but since there are a few ppl here, I suppose you could each try one :)
G
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New Pattern
Wednesday, 10-Nov-1999 07:14:08
128.113.195.133 writes:
Just realized something that i had overseen:
As explained before, REDPENGUINFRENZY starts in an odd number (?R-ED-...) and BEWAREICEWEASELS starts in an
even one (BE-WA-...) this would mean that we would have two RE's in the message...
Adding this to the indexes we have already should help cutting the chances of where they are down... but still not sure about
how we will reconstruct the matrix.
keep going,
Csativa
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Cut down to 2 pos
Wednesday, 10-Nov-1999 07:47:44
128.113.195.133 writes:
Ok, I hope I'm not wrong on this... but I think we are now really close to the answer:
As I said, the RE in the phrases has to be a repeated pair. So, I took at the indexes of BEWAREICEWEASELS and kept the
ones that had a repeated pair after 4 digits.
The new index was:
4 (LU), 28(EW), 76(OL), 84(FZ), 122(LU), 158(LA)
(The pair after the number says what pair corresponded to RE).
After this I looked for the pairs of those and search for the ones that where 10 digits away from the REDPENGUINFRENZY
indexes.. only found 33(OL) and 133(EW).
Which means that the possible indexes for BEWAREICEWEASELS are 28 and 76; and for REDPENGUINFRENZY are 33
and 133.
Now, how can we reconstruct the matrix?
closer & closer
Csativa
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Re: Cut down to 2 pos
Wednesday, 10-Nov-1999 08:25:20
208.214.188.9 writes:
As soon as I have two mins I'll check on your results.. but I think we can try this.. where both phrases fit, make a couples
list.. plain = cipher...
There seem to be a lot of E couples... By listing what cipher E gives, we can probably get a list of most of the 8 letters E
itself can produce (as explained by Laurent last night) and then try to construct a matrix from there.. ie
. . ? . .
. . ? . .
? ? E ? ?
. . ? . .
. . ? . .
Then see what other couples we have in there too.. if we could find any proofs of some letters being in the same rol/col that
would probably help too...
-Tx
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e: Cut down to 2 pos
Wednesday, 10-Nov-1999 08:58:31
62.156.30.60 writes:
taking your first idea :
BEWAREICEWEASELS starting at 28 :
BE WA RE IC EW
FB SD EW NP XK
building the matrix :
STEP 1 :
BE -> FB : twice B, which means : NO rect / to turn E to B : E gotta be right of
we get this : F ? ? E B
STEP 2 :
RE -> EW : twice E, so NO rect / gotta be below
we get this : ? ? ? R ?
F ? ? E B
? ? ? W ?
STEP 3 :
EW -> XK : impossible, gives us W ?, NOT XK
your opinion ?
the seeker
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GOTCHA :)
Wednesday, 10-Nov-1999 08:59:52
208.214.188.10 writes:
Place REDPENGUINFRENZY starting at 33 and BEWAREICEWEASELS at 76 it will give:
EW NP XK IC FT RE OL KA LZ
?R ED PE NG UI NF RE NZ Y?
LA ET OL QA DF HS FZ WN
BE WA RE IC EW EA SE LS
RE = OL in both cases, and all the other cipher couples are different...
So let's see... that means we can establish some encoding couples... but I'm tired of working in this tiny message window so
I'll come back in another message ;)
-Tx
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Some more substitution...
Wednesday, 10-Nov-1999 09:05:29
208.214.188.4 writes:
VY TE SY ED LU TE RV LF NV UH DW AR DL CF FB SD EW NP XK IC
AW AW ?R ED PE NG
FT RE OL KA LZ YL SL TO BK EV LY AR MK RB OD NA LD YP LA ET
UI NF RE NZ Y? BE WA
OL QA DF HS FZ WN AI DS MU RU OL HR YL LO TW FY LD IC VL US
RE IC EW EA SE LS RE ER NG
VS SF ZY LU NF FX LK TG BC DO BF AL EW RP FY WL HU LD AR LI
EB ?R
TF LA BF FZ CY FU UF BG
IU BE SE
-Tx
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More spacing..
Wednesday, 10-Nov-1999 09:07:24
208.214.188.4 writes:
VY TE SY ED LU TE RV LF NV UH DW AR DL CF FB SD EW NP XK IC
AW AW ?R ED PE NG
FT RE OL KA LZ YL SL TO BK EV LY AR MK RB OD NA LD YP LA ET
UI NF RE NZ Y? BE WA
OL QA DF HS FZ WN AI DS MU RU OL HR YL LO TW FY LD IC VL US
RE IC EW EA SE LS RE ER NG
VS SF ZY LU NF FX LK TG BC DO BF AL EW RP FY WL HU LD AR LI
EB ?R
TF LA BF FZ CY FU UF BG
IU BE SE
-Tx
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Re: GOTCHA :) / this tiny window
Wednesday, 10-Nov-1999 09:06:08
62.156.30.14 writes:
correct, this tiny window is really a mess.
So I prepare my stuff with notepad and just throw it in.
the seeker
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bad news...
Wednesday, 10-Nov-1999 09:26:08
128.113.195.133 writes:
Seems like this is wrong :(
A couple decoded is the same as the encoded one right? the RE in front of the OL should be OL, but instead it's NF....
dang.Or am I wrong?
Frustrated and tired... and sleepy :)
Csativa
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Re: bad news - maybe not
Wednesday, 10-Nov-1999 09:36:01
208.214.188.9 writes:
What you say is true only for rectangles:
. . . . .
. R---O .
. | . | .
. L---E .
. . . . .
RE will encode OL
ER will encode LO
OL will encode RE
LO will encode ER
*BUT*.. look at this
. . . . .
. . . . .
R X O E L
. . . . .
. . . . .
RE encodes as XL
ER encodes as LX
XL encodes as OR
LX encodes as RO
OR encodes as EX
RO encodes as XE
EX encodes as LO
XE encodes as OL
LO encodes as RE
OL encodes as ER
Damn.. hadn't realized before typing this same lines as so many possibilities.. hmm.
But you've pointed out a really fine way to see if two couples could be on the same line !!!!! Had been looking for one :) Cool !
-Tx
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Damn that means cipher aren't switchable.. :( (n/t) (-Tx)
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76 doesn't respect 'set of 8' rule :(
Wednesday, 10-Nov-1999 09:26:59
195.238.21.252 writes:
Hi,
hhhmm, sorry, but 76 for 'beware...' doesn't respect the 'set of 8' rules :
LA ET OL QA DF HS FZ WN
BE WA RE IC EW EA SE LS
BE -> LA (2)
RE -> Ol (1)
EW -> DF (2)
EA -> HS (2)
SE -> FZ (2)
That's 9 different letters in 'E' row and col ...
Note that I think we can extend the 'set of 8' rules by taking into account the digram of 'beware...' which correspond to a
digram of the cipher containing 'E'. In the previous example, we could add the letters 'WA' in the set (giving a total of 10,
because A was already in). 'WA' correspond to the cipher digram 'ET'. I'll call this 'extended set of 8'.
Anyway, I'm still stuck with 11 possible position for 'beware' which respect the 'extended set of 8'. 5 from those 11 even have
a 'RE' digram which can be found at least twice in the cipher (Csativa finding). btw;
I spend my whole day drawing rectangles and lines, head start aching, eyes sees lines everywhere, but I keep getting
blocked somewhere.
I can build a matrix which will crypt correctly 2, 3, 4, 5 ... digram, but I can't build one which will allow me to crypt the 8
digram of 'beware' :(
Boss is around, so i better pretend to work again :)
later ,
Laurent
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Re: 76 doesn't respect 'set of 8' rule :(
Wednesday, 10-Nov-1999 09:38:33
128.113.195.133 writes:
Hmmm... Laurent, could you tell us the positions you came up with?
thnx,
Csativa
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Whew ! It _does_ fit the set of 8...
Wednesday, 10-Nov-1999 09:51:59
208.214.188.4 writes:
Here's the list you gave, Laurent:
BE -> LA (2)
RE -> Ol (1)
EW -> DF (2)
EA -> HS (2)
SE -> FZ (2)
Look at the middle and last rows. You have two times F ! woohoo ! so that means there's only 8 letters left, AFDHLOSZ :)
OTOH, if we put 'bewareiceweasels' at 76, we can't put 'redpenguinfrenzy' at 33... it would add KNPX to the set of letters to go
with E...
-Tx
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Re: Whew ! It _does_ fit the set of 8...
Wednesday, 10-Nov-1999 10:03:36
128.113.195.133 writes:
Hate having to type bad news...
The main reason we chose to put beware in 76 was that it could go with repenguin in 33... else there really isn't any point to
it. maybe redpenguin isn't there??
Csativa
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Red Penguin...
Wednesday, 10-Nov-1999 10:08:46
208.214.188.9 writes:
That's what I'm starting to think.. 76/33 is the only fit to have both of them there at the same time, but now E would have to be
in the same rows and columns as 12 other letters instead of 8.. So maybe the red penguin phrases isn't there at all.. maybe
the guy is not "operating under duress" after all...
hmpf. this is one frustraring puzzle ;)
-Tx
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you're right, BUT ...
Wednesday, 10-Nov-1999 10:12:58
194.78.233.199 writes:
sorry, I mistyped ... you are right ... BUT, I keep counting with the 'UF' we got from '?E' or (EN' (END). That's 2 more letters
and we are back to 9 :(:(:
Not counting the letters you mentionned if you use the other phrase 'penguin'.
btw, I don't take this one into account ... I just don't like that 'IF he is under duress ..'
I'll post my possible position as soon as i get home (very soon now:).
Hey guy, just to give us some more courage, may I remind us this is supposed to be an 'EASY' challenge, LOL
later,
Laurent.
mistyped ... but still 9 :(
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Indeed..
Wednesday, 10-Nov-1999 10:23:38
208.214.188.9 writes:
Had a look at the other two challenges, and I'm doing what I can to keep them out of my head so I don't get discouraged
*GRIN*
Good point with the END part.. that'd make 9..
so we'll have to look in possible places for the weasels and see how large the sets would be.. hmm..
-Tx
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Re: Indeed..
Wednesday, 10-Nov-1999 23:34:47
128.113.192.164 writes:
I actually did a check on this the other night.
What I found (not necesarrily true):
o We know that if both "beware..." and "redpenguin..." are in the message, and the offsets are "?r ed pe ng..." and "be wa..."
then there are two occurrances of "re." That means that there are atleast two codes that are the same.
o Using that knowledge, I wrote a program to check all of the pairs that occurr two or more times, and decoded the other
pairs based on this.
o EVERY SINGLE f---ING ONE failed, because I could not make a matrix which satisfied the codes.
o Conclusion:
either "redpenguin..." is not in the message, or "bewareice..." starts on an odd byte.
Now my approach is to assume that either the pair OL or LD translates to RE (ER?) and OL or LD translates to something
else, maybe ES (SE?) maybe something else. Who knows.
Trumpeter
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*two* new patterns in cipher
Wednesday, 10-Nov-1999 08:00:36
208.214.188.4 writes:
?R ED PE NG UI NF RE NZ Y? BE WA RE IC EW EA SE LS
That would mean a repeating pattern with at least 4 couples in between, but up to any number if there are other words in
between... Will check on that :)
I found two new patterns in the cipher. They are not 'direct' patterns - no direct repetition or inversion, but rather a mix of the
two:
First and before last lines:
UH DW AR DL
HU LD AR
Except for the inserted DW, the other three are the same with slight permutations.
Last and before last lines:
BF AL
LA BF
Same two couples, inverted, with one with its letters inverted..
-Tx
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my possible solution ... and 'in seek for a new road'
Wednesday, 10-Nov-1999 11:11:51
195.238.22.113 writes:
Ok,
Like I said I'll post here my possible positions, But I really doubt there solution is in there. I have been thinking on it while
driving back home and I got some new thought ... more on this later :)
Anyway, here are my possible positions. I am working only on 'BEWAREICEWEASELS' and on the pair '?E' or 'EN' give 'UF'.
-First we can assume that the 'beware..' phase start on a even position (starting from 0). This due to the fact that we don't
have 2 same digram repeating after 6 position (plain digram 'EW').
This leave half of the position.
- Second. We know that a letter in a plain digram can't appear at the same position in the cipher digram ('?E' can't become
'?E'). I'll call this rule 1. So I scroll the 'BEWARE'... through all possible position and suppress those where a letter in the
plain text is found at the same position in the cipher. This leave us 32 solutions :4, 14, 16, 20, 26, 28, 52, 54, 64, 76, 78, 82,
84, 86, 90, 96, 102, 114, 116, 120, 122, 124, 126, 128, 132, 138, 146, 150, 154, 156, 158, 162.
- Third. I apply the 'extended set of 8' rule. This leaves 11 possible solutions : 14, 20, 84, 96, 114, 116, 122, 150, 154, 158,
162.
_ Fourth. I even apply the rule discovered by Csativa. the 'RE' plain digram 'could' be find somewhere else in the sentence
'REDPENGUINFRENZY'. This leave 6 possible solutions : 84, 96, 122, 150, 158, 162.
I know that the position 158, 162 are not valid cause we don't have the 'END'. I'm just too lazy to remove them :)
Anyway, I have tried the 11 posible position found in the 3th point more than once each ... I never could build matrix which
give -full- result.
I really think this is a wrong way for some or other reason ... I'll post some new thought about this later.
Regards,
Laurent.
PS : Just in case i made some typing error above i'll paste the file I generated below.
On first line you find the number of letters in the 'set of 8' (reject all above 8), followed by those letters. Next line start with the
position, the number of letter in the set of 8 again and the cipher text. Next line is just the plain text to help building up the
grid.
12 - UFSYLRVNWAIC
004 - 012 - SYEDLUTERVLFNVUH
BEWAREICEWEASELS
8 - UFLHARDC
014 - 008 - LFNVUHDWARDLCFFB
BEWAREICEWEASELS
9 - UFNVDWLCB
016 - 009 - NVUHDWARDLCFFBSD
BEWAREICEWEASELS
7 - UFDWLBS
020 - 007 - DWARDLCFFBSDEWNP
BEWAREICEWEASELS
10 - UFCSDNPXKI
026 - 010 - CFFBSDEWNPXKICFT
BEWAREICEWEASELS
12 - UFBWXKICTRLS
028 - 012 - FBSDEWNPXKICFTRE
BEWAREICEWEASELS
12 - UFSLBKYARMIC
052 - 012 - SLTOBKEVLYARMKRB
BEWAREICEWEASELS
10 - UFTOVARMKB
054 - 010 - TOBKEVLYARMKRBOD
BEWAREICEWEASELS
11 - UFMKODLYPAS
064 - 011 - MKRBODNALDYPLAET
BEWAREICEWEASELS
10 - UFLAODHSZW
076 - 010 - LAETOLQADFHSFZWN
BEWAREICEWEASELS
11 - UFTQAHSZWNB
078 - 011 - ETOLQADFHSFZWNAI
BEWAREICEWEASELS
10 - UFQAHSWNID
082 - 010 - QADFHSFZWNAIDSMU
BEWAREICEWEASELS
8 - UFDZAISM
084 - 008 - DFHSFZWNAIDSMURU
BEWAREICEWEASELS
9 - UFHSWNDMR
086 - 009 - HSFZWNAIDSMURUOL
BEWAREICEWEASELS
10 - UFWNDSROLH
090 - 010 - WNAIDSMURUOLHRYL
BEWAREICEWEASELS
8 - UFMOLYTW
096 - 008 - MURUOLHRYLLOTWFY
BEWAREICEWEASELS
10 - UFHRLOYDIC
102 - 010 - HRYLLOTWFYLDICVL
BEWAREICEWEASELS
8 - UFICSZYL
114 - 008 - ICVLUSVSSFZYLUNF
BEWAREICEWEASELS
8 - UFVLSZYN
116 - 008 - VLUSVSSFZYLUNFFX
BEWAREICEWEASELS
10 - UFVSZYNXLK
120 - 010 - VSSFZYLUNFFXLKTG
BEWAREICEWEASELS
8 - UFSLXKTG
122 - 008 - SFZYLUNFFXLKTGBC
BEWAREICEWEASELS
11 - UFZYNLKTGBC
124 - 011 - ZYLUNFFXLKTGBCDO
BEWAREICEWEASELS
10 - UFLXTGBCDO
126 - 010 - LUNFFXLKTGBCDOBF
BEWAREICEWEASELS
9 - UFNLKBCDO
128 - 009 - NFFXLKTGBCDOBFAL
BEWAREICEWEASELS
9 - UFLKBCAWS
132 - 009 - LKTGBCDOBFALEWRP
BEWAREICEWEASELS
12 - UFDOALRPYWIC
138 - 012 - DOBFALEWRPFYWLHU
BEWAREICEWEASELS
9 - UFRPWLDAI
146 - 009 - RPFYWLHULDARLITF
BEWAREICEWEASELS
8 - UFWLDITA
150 - 008 - WLHULDARLITFLABF
BEWAREICEWEASELS
8 - UFLDIABZ
154 - 008 - LDARLITFLABFFZCY
BEWAREICEWEASELS
9 - UFARTBZCY
156 - 009 - ARLITFLABFFZCYFU
BEWAREICEWEASELS
8 - UFLIAZCY
158 - 008 - LITFLABFFZCYFUUF
BEWAREICEWEASELS
7 - UFLAZBG
162 - 007 - LABFFZCYFUUFBGXX
BEWAREICEWEASELS
laurent
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