Quick thoughts...
Friday, 12-Nov-1999 11:03:20

208.214.188.4 writes:

Getting a handful of emergency at work so I can't really work on the cipher today, but will get back to it this weekend... some
quick thoughts..

Why the heck couldn't they decrypt it ? You have the key which should have been known by the two parties beforehand...
then you have the cipher text...

I had thought about removing the first character of the cipher too... but it gives doubles yeah.. so that's not a solution.. taking
an odd number of cipher letters gives doubles in couples, taking an even number of letters just removes a couple.. not really
helping..

If the encryption process was done correctly but the cipher got messed up at transmission ? Chances are the beginning of
the message would have be ok then would start to mess up after a couple of words... this would have shown the corruption
and probably they would have asked for a retransmission ?

Errors in key.. really, really minor errors such as swapping two letters in the grid would still make for a quasi readable
message... and could be corrected easily.. if their problem comes from the key it could be because of many things, the most
serious ones including a wrong/different keyword used and also a wrong placement of the keyword / the creation process of
the grid.

Just had a thought... what if he used his duress phrase as keyword ? I'll test quickly this afternoon by trying it by placing it in
rows, column and spirals...

We know nothing about the process used to create the matrix... the only hint we could have is if they placed the keyword in
columns or lines, the last letters of the alphabet should be in the bottom right corner of the matrix... or in the middle if they
used a spiral... this is especially true if they used a very common word as keyword, since chances are it wouldn't use
VWXYZ...

This could be something to test.. try to build a matrix by assuming the last line or column to be VWXYZ....

Did the guy not know how to apply the playfair ? We have a bunch of couples reversing themselves in the cipher... that
seems to indicate he knew about getting the letters from the grid in the right order...

I am wondering why they didn't give the supposed keyword.... they did at least give clues to them or possibilities for the
second and third challenges..

It really bugs me - why can't they decode one of their own messages :) let's read that again.. the message is from one of their
own agents, but the message was caught by an intercept station..? intercept ? is this to indicate that this wasn't a planned
and scheduled transmission ? could this agent be a double agent ? it hasn't been established how they concluded this was
indeed their agent... since all they have is the message and they can't decipher it... so either it's all BS, or they had another
mean (ie scheduled communication time / date) to tell them it's indeed from their agent...

Anyways... it's always at the back of my mind ;) But have to get back to work... see you all soon

-Tx

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happy working
Friday, 12-Nov-1999 12:38:57

193.158.173.32 writes:

Hi,

well : why they could not decipher the code : please read my 'plot' I posted for Jeff (named 'correction').
Your idea with VWXYZ. Yeah, I have been working on this too.
Take a look VY .. SY are the first. I posted this once before, you can get some slight clues about the codephrase.

Yes, and I tried beloved weasels and penguins as codephrase too, but no success. But could be rather good if someone
could confirm.
Ah, gotta work. Damn.
LA TE RM OR EX

the seeker

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Re: follow up on _tx
Friday, 12-Nov-1999 13:24:53

216.224.148.138 writes:

I also reviewed the code yesterday to make sure it was correctly copied and pasted...it was;; but as u noted...could their be a
difference if WE ourselves have changed it somewhat by changing it to doubels...well from the lesson 17 that Seeker
posted....there just might be...I'm just stumbeling thru this so Hey i don't know but lesson 17 says this:

The encipherment did not split the doubled letters as is the rule:
......

The square Evans used was based on the key PHYSICAL
EXAMINATION :

P H Y S I
C A L E X
M N T O B
D F G K Q
R U V W Z

The encipherment did not split the doubled letters as is
the rule:

XELWA OHWUW YZMWI HOMNE OBTFW
MSSPI AJLUO EAONG OOFCM FEXTT
CWCFZ YIPTF EOBHM WEMOC SAWCZ
SNYNW MGXEL HEZCU FNZYL NSBTB
DANFK OPEWM SSHBK GCWFV EKMUE

There were 335 letters in 5 messages, in the same key
beginning XYAWO GAOOA GPEMO HPQCW IPNLG RPIXL
TXLOA NNYCS YXBOY MNBIN YOBTY QYNAI ...,

I gather from this statement being pointed out... that there is a difference then??????????
perhaps we should NOT be splitting the letters into doubles?

jeff

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just another rule
Friday, 12-Nov-1999 16:51:16

195.238.22.67 writes:

Don't know if this is usefull or has already be said but here is a new rule :

a letter in the cipher can only be one of five letters : the four on the same line as the corresponding plain letter and the one
below the plain letter.

Let's say you have :

ABCDE
FGHIK

then the cipher letter for 'D' can only be A,B,C,E or I.

Don't think it will give anything new, but we never know.

Laurent.

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btw, did someone played with the frequencies of the letters ? (n/t)

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Re: just another rule
Friday, 12-Nov-1999 18:05:13

193.159.101.235 writes:

Correct Laurent, posted this before. But didn't bring me very far up to now. :-(
(did you check that excerpt for building grids ? Nothing new, I think)

Tested some possible keywords : nope
(checked them vert and hori and in serpents)

The only thing for sure is that VY beginning :
so there will be no last line V W X Y Z.

BTW : check your mail !

work is caling, not much time for penguins tonight !

regards
the seeker

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Tried a different approach Does it make sense?
Friday, 12-Nov-1999 19:25:37

216.58.8.173 writes:

Greetings everyone

I tried a different approach

Looking at the doublets in the message we have this list (this disregards the direction of the letter combination.)

AI BC CB DE ED FB GB HR IA KA LA
AK BF CI DF ER FC GT HS IC KB LD
AL BG CF DL ET FD HU IL KL LF
AN BK CY DO EW FL KM LI
AQ BR DS FN KX LK
AR DW FS LO
FT LS
FU LU
FX LV
FY LW
FZ LY
LZ
MK NA OD PN QA RB SD TE UL VE WD
MU NF OL PR RE SF TF UH VL WE
NP OT PY RH SH TG US VN WL
NV RP SL TW VS WN
NW RU SY VY WT
RV
XF YF ZF
XK YL ZL
YP ZY
YS
YV
YZ
If most of the time they would make two opposite corners of a square we should be able to make part of the matrix (if not all)
Looking at the bold letters in the list starting at Z we have ZF, ZL, ZY
Now looking at Y column we see YF, YL,YZ and YS
Now looking at L column we see LF, LY,LZ and LS
Same thing with F column FL, FY,FZ, and FS
Looking at the S column we see SF, SL, SY
We do not have SZ but the three occur together in at least four columns
(I realize that FZ and ZF is the same since direction is not taken into account but when compared with each other they do present a pattern since S is not in the Z column)
So we should be able to put these four letters into a matrix.
Z is an unusual letter to use in a keyword so if we assume that it is left in its original position then the others should form a straight line through the matrix.
Perhaps like this:
Y . . . .
. F . . .
. . L . .
. . . S .
. . . . Z

Putting them in a different arrangement presents difficulties when we add the rest of the alphabet.
So the keyword might start with Y ??

If we now add the rest of the alphabet into the matrix we wee it almost fits perfectly except we need one letter more between
F - L and between L - S one letter should be taken away.

So could it be that the keyword is not really a keyword (plaintext) but the movement of two letters in the matrix. The Y to the
first position and perhaps taking an M or N or O or P or Q or R putting it in the space between the letters F - L

I haven't been able to try any combinations yet.

Does this make sense or am I all alone in left field.

Princess

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Re: Tried a different approach Does it make sense?
Friday, 12-Nov-1999 20:08:03

193.158.173.212 writes:

Hi Princess,

I just rushed in from the night shift to see you have joined the anti-penguin-front. Welcomne ! You made an interesting
approach !
Does it make sense ? Hmm, you gotta take care that there are a lot of combinations which are *not* in a rectangle - but in
the horicontal or vertical. But all in all : more and more I tend using this approach in rebuilding the matrix and/or the keyword
without having a look at this damned penguin or weasel. Maybe the last chance before starting an awful brute-forcing ?

regards

the seeker

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Re: Re: Tried a different approach Does it make sense?
Friday, 12-Nov-1999 20:52:24

216.58.8.173 writes:

Hi Seeker

I have been here for a while but not actively participating. There is an awful lot of treads below.

I realize the vertical and the horizontal aspect in encoding and decoding and I was not trying to decode with this just yet but
see if a pattern would suggest a matrix order where possibly a letter might be put in the matrix and give clues to a keyword
that might be guessed at to get closer.

Princes

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Re: table screwed up
Friday, 12-Nov-1999 20:44:27

216.58.8.173 writes:

Princess

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Re: Tried a different approach Does it make sense?
Saturday, 13-Nov-1999 07:51:27

195.238.22.32 writes:

Hi princess,

as far as i can tell, your approach makes sense. As long as you admit some exceptions to occur for the vertical or horizontal
things to occur, you should get something out of that.

For my own, I'm still stuck with those letter frequencies. All I can -almost- be sure for now is that E, F and L are on the same
line.

EF because of the 'END' ... UF -> ?E, so we have the rectangle
E F
U ?

The U is most probably on the last line, second column.
Also, L should be on the same line as E if we assume E is the most frequent letter in the plain text (L is the most frequent
one in the cipher).
as D is also very frequent in the cipher, we may assume D is on the same line or in the same column as E (I'm currently
assuming it's on the same line).

so we have the following 'matrix'.

D E F ghik L
? ? ? ?
? U

we can probably assume Z is not in the cipher and this at the last position.
Of course, with 'END' we also know that BG->ND. now comes the 'guessing part' : 'G' could be between F & L and so GIKG
are letters of the key. ... there are many others possibility.

I just think that the 'grid' I wrote above should be close to the right one ... any comment on this ?

Anybody with any clue to complete this grid ?

Oh yes, I forgot ... Anybody knows about words ending with E followed by 2 same letters other than 'ESS' (like 'happiness') or
'ELL' (like 'well') ? If it's S or L, then the 'U' of my grid have to move up in the first line (keyword) with that other letter (neither
S, neither L follow U in the alphabet). and that other letter can't be L (cause L must be in the same line as E).

Well, I'm rambling now ... But that's what i have done since yesterday :)

well, gotta run now ... wife is off-work today, so I should be 'off-computer' :)

Regards,
Laurent.

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Re: Re: Tried a different approach Does it make sense?
Saturday, 13-Nov-1999 14:19:00

216.224.149.187 writes:

morning
can't spend much or any time on this today; I promised DQ long ago an essay on messageboarding and have fallen down on
that promise;

but laurent something to also think on if your hypothesis is correct above...

D E F ghik L
? ? ? ?
? U

vowels aeiou...e and u would seem to be used in your config...leaving
a.i.o for a keyword in the first line which has to at least contain one vowel....

jeff

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Re: btw
Saturday, 13-Nov-1999 14:40:01

216.224.149.187 writes:

this config for red penguin seems to match your requirements for
e
u
l

being in the same line:

r e d p n
g u i f z
y a b c h
k l m o q
s t v w x

has anyone figured out WHY this message is ended with XX XX....is it to disguise the end to make it harder???

jeff

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The XX XXs
Saturday, 13-Nov-1999 15:40:15

62.156.30.143 writes:

Hi jeff,

they use these .XXXX just to fill up the last block to a 5 letter block.

Gonna check the rest of your postings

later

the seeker

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Re: Re: Re: Tried a different approach Does it make sense?
Saturday, 13-Nov-1999 17:03:59

194.78.233.223 writes:

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for your comments :)

did not done much today neither, but for now, 'U' moved some lines up and is part of the keyword with a few other letters :
AEIUY & BSNHK ... 'U' should be in column 2 and some others constrain apply to the other letters, but I don't have time
(neither clean mind enough - nope, I'm not drunk ... just tired:) to write them down.

anybody can figure a keyword with those letters ?
(I could find 'BUSY' ... but nothing more :(

Respects to all,
laurent.

Oh and btw, jeff, I can't wait for your essay on messageboarding ... Then I'll maybe be able to post -readable- text :) ... oh,
and even maybe talking post ? :)

Laurent

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Re: Re: Re: Tried a different approach Does it make sense?
Saturday, 13-Nov-1999 17:03:59

194.78.233.223 writes:

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for your comments :)

anybody can figure a keyword with those letters ?
(I could find 'BUSY' ... but nothing more :(

Respects to all,
laurent.

Oh and btw, jeff, I can't wait for your essay on messageboarding ... Then I'll maybe be able to post -readable- text :) ... oh,
and even maybe talking post ? :)

Laurent

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more details ...
Sunday, 14-Nov-1999 08:04:24

194.78.235.175 writes:

Hi Jeff,

First of all, my sound card can't play midi sound :( ... but I already 'heard' you on PWF :)

I'll try to explain below how I came up with the set of letters i posted above (which is definitaly not the right one IMO).

We are -almost- sure that the sentences 'Beware ice weasels' and 'red penguin frenzy' aren't in the plain text (at least not as i
wrote them).
So what else do we know ? The only thing i am sure is that 'END' is at the end. And we also know it must be 'easy'. So i tried
to figure an 'easy' way to guess the matrix.

So let's start with the end :

UFBG
?END

1. So we have : UF -> ?E

U ?
E F

--> E and F are on the same line and U is in the same column as E

2. we also have : BG -> ND

B N
D B

3. From the statistics : L is the most frequent letter in the cipher. We can assume E will be the most frequent letter in the
plain text. So we can supose L will be in the same row as E.
F is the second most frequent letter in the cipher. So F should be in the same line as E too. This confirm 1.

So we now have one of the following :

E F ? ? L ? E F ? L ? ? E F L

As D is the 3th most frequent letter in the cipher, D should be in the same row or col as E. Let's say it's in the same row.
This give us the following line :

D E F ? L

4. At the end we have : 'FU UF BG' which should give something like :
'E? ?E ND'. So E?? should be the end of the last word. As far as i know the only way to end a word this way is either with
ELL (like in WELL) or ESS (like in WEAKNESS). It can't be 'L' (EL is cryped as FD with the current matrix we are building).
So it should be S.
so we have :

F E E F
S U U S

As in the alphabe S is not folowing U, 'US' should be in the key part of our matrix.
so we have :

? U S ? ?
D E F ? L

5. From 2 we know that D and G must be on the same line, so we have :

B U S N ?
D E F G L

from this we can say that the letters H, I , K should be in the key too, but we don't know their places.

6. After the letter L, in the alphabet, there are 11 letters (not used yet) : M O P Q R T V W X Y Z. And we have 10 position in
the 2 last row. So one of those 11 letter should appear in the key.

7. Which letter ?

It seems to be most probably one of the 6 last one.
ER-RE which is a most frequent digram in english should correspond to a frequent digram in our ciphertext. It could be DL,
OL, FB or YL.
it is most probably OL, because :

D E F G L
M O P Q R

Also, from the first digram of our cipher (VY) it seems obvious that V and Y can't be both on the last line.
So, let's say it's Y which is in the keyword.

All this lead us to the following 'matrix'

a h i C k
B U S N Y
D E F G L
M O P Q R
T V W X Z

lower case letters are susceptible to move.

If you try this matrix, you'll see that it doesn't return a 'readable' plain text. And so, this is not the right solution (but if you
look close at it you can see words appearing like 'BOY', 'KEY', ...). But I'm convinced that the method I used should work if
we could find the right assumptions. And moreover ... it's a simple method ... just a pen, a sheet of paper and you can try.
The only problem is that, starting at 3, we can only -guess- how things -should- be.

Hope this method open new roads to the solution.

Regards,
Laurent.

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Re:
Saturday, 13-Nov-1999 17:33:44

216.224.149.187 writes:

AEIUY & BSNHK

snake
shake
easy <<---now hummm; they said it would be 'easy"...nahhhhh you don't think.....?

will continue with building words from this; but still don't know How you came up with these as being the basis for keyword

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Re: herees some more
Saturday, 13-Nov-1999 17:54:34

216.224.149.187 writes:

AEIUY & BSNHK

snake
shake
easy
shy
shine
bay
bane
buy
by
bye
bake
bash

can we repeat letters?
business
babe
bass

jeff

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Re:more of same
Saturday, 13-Nov-1999 18:07:57

216.224.149.187 writes:

AEIUY & BSNHK

snake
shake
easy
shy
shine
bay
bane
buy
by
bye
bake
bash
hanky
hash
hey
hay
say
sake
sane
sky
Key
keys

yes
yen

can we repeat letters?
business
babe
bass
yankee
kiss

larent; u are to tired!! all u saw was busy? hehehe

jeff

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Re: oh oh
Saturday, 13-Nov-1999 18:24:41

216.224.149.187 writes:

...don't tell me i can only use two letters from each side.........?

jeff

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yes i was too tired :)
Sunday, 14-Nov-1999 08:09:45

194.78.235.175 writes:

Thanks for all those words jeff :) Yes, I was really too tired.

btw, yes you can use any letter twice. Each letter appear in the matrix only the first time you use it.

So if for example the keyword is 'out of business', then the matrix will start with 'OUTFBUSINE'

Regards,
Laurent.

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