EIGHTH DAY
Friday, April 26, 1912

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE, UNITED STATES SENATE,
       Washington, D.C.

     The subcommittee met at 10:55 o'clock
     Present:  Senators Smith (chairman), Newlands, and Fletcher.
SENATOR NEWLANDS:   Mr. Chairman, before we proceed I wish to state that when the various members of the crew were apportioned among the members of the subcommittee yesterday, with a view to their examination, I was approached by newspaper men regarding the report of the hearings.  I told them the hearings would be executive, the testimony would be reported this morning, and that it would be necessary for them to attend.  In order to fortify myself, I communicated with the other members of the subcommittee, with a view to having a general understanding upon the subject.  I find that in the morning papers the statements of some of these witnesses appear, and I regret very much there was a misunderstanding, and wish to say to the newspaper men to whom I made that statement that I do regret the misunderstanding.  It seems to have been an inadvertence, the cause of which I do not understand.
SENATOR SMITH:  I desire to say for my associates that we have taken the testimony of John Hardy, chief steward, second class; William Ward, saloon steward; James Widgery, second class, in charge of bath on F deck forward; and Edward John Buley, able seaman.  This testimony was taken by Senator Fletcher.  It has all been taken under oath and will be treated as a part of the official record.  Senator Bourne took the testimony under oath of George Frederick Crowe, steward; C. D. Andrews, officers' steward; and John Collins, assistant cook.  Senator Newlands took under oath the testimony of Edward Wheelton, first­class steward; W. H. Taylor, fireman; George Moore, able seaman; and Thomas Jones seaman.
     The same process was followed, under oath, by myself, and I examined last night Haynes, Hemming, and Evans.  That testimony will be included as a part of the permanent record, and is accessible, as all other testimony, to the public.
     I have, however, five of the crew whom I was unable to examine last night because of the lateness of the hour, and these men will be examined either in public session to­day or by the same arrangement that was followed last night.  So far as the work of Senator Perkins and Senator Burton is concerned, they did not take the testimony of their witnesses under oath, and in all probability will desire to reexamine them or submit their statements to the committee, who will pass upon their importance.
     I might add that by arrangement of the subcommittee all statements and testimony taken after the close of the public session yesterday were to be treated as executive until the next open session of the subcommittee, which would have been this morning, and so far as I know, none of the members of the committee gave out any statement or statements containing this testimony.
     I desire to have Mr. Franklin take the stand for a moment.

ADDITIONAL TESTIMONY OF MR. P.A. S. FRANKLIN,
VICE PRESIDENT INTERNATIONAL MERCANTILE MARINE CO.


SENATOR SMITH:  Before examining Mr. Franklin, I would like to have the record show that everything that transpires in connection with this inquiry is public, and no attempt whatever to suppress any part of the testimony, or the circumstances surrounding it, will be made.  I had subpoenaed the captain and wireless operator of the steamship Californian, supposed to have given ample warning to the Titanic of its proximity to ice the day of the disaster.  I received from Boston the following telegram, addressed to the sergeant at arms, dated April 25, 1912:
Boston, MASS., April 25, 1912
D. M. RANSDELL, Sergeant at Arms, United States Senate, Washington, D.C.
     Your telegram matter steamship Californian received 6 p.m.  Capt. Stanley Lord and Wireless Operator C. E. Evans duly subpoenaed with attested copy telegram personally by me at 7 p.m.  They express themselves willing to go but are not, 10 p.m., prevented from going by White Star officials.  Believe they have important information.  Please advise me further, and will bring them to Washington if necessary.        Guy Murchie, United States Marshal.
     When this message was received, I was called up over the telephone by Col. Ransdell, sergeant at arms, and told of this message, and promptly gave the sergeant at arms authority to demand the presence of the captain and wireless operator of the Californian.  This has been done, and in order that no misapprehensions may arise, or false reports be circulated, which will in any way reflect upon the officers of the Californian or the officers of any company, I desire to ask Mr. Franklin, vice president of the International Mercantile Marine Co., controlling the White Star Line, whether he knows anything about this matter.
MR. FRANKLIN:  I can tell you all I know about it.  About 8:30, or possibly a quarter of 9, yesterday evening, I received a telephone call from Boston, and Mr. John H. Thomas, our representative in Boston, said that the captain of the Californian and the Marconi operator of the Californian had both been subpoenaed to come to Washington, and asked whether, considering the steamer was sailing, as I remember, on Saturday ­ although in my mind it was scheduled to sail on Friday, that being her regular day ­ we could not arrange, being here on the spot, to have their depositions taken in Boston rather than compel these me to come all the way to Washington, with the risk of not getting back in time to have the steamer sail.  I told him that I would call up Senator Smith, the chairman of the committee, and ask if this could possibly be arranged, and would call up Boston just as quickly as I could get a reply.  I called up the Senate Office Building at once, and I could not reach Senator Smith immediately.  I called up later; and I had a conversation with Senator Smith's secretary, who advised me that he had had a memorandum passed in to Senator Smith, and the reply was that the men would have to come to Washington, that their depositions could not be taken, and that the Senator understood that the men would have time to get down here so that their statements might be properly taken by the committee, and they would be allowed to return to Boston in time for the departure of their steamer.  I immediately called Boston on the telephone, got Mr. Thomas, told him that the men must come along at once, that I hoped they could without doubt catch the midnight train getting here about 1 o'clock this afternoon, and that we would do everything possible to persuade the committee to take their testimony this afternoon and allow them to return to­night.
     I could not say exactly what time that telephone message was sent, but I should say it was about half past nine or a quarter to 10; so that, so far as we were concerned, there was no effort or anxiety or anything of that kind on our part to avoid having their testimony taken.  We were only anxious to arrange to have it done in Boston, if the committee could see their way clear to do it.

SENATOR SMITH:  Is the steamship Californian part of your line?
MR. FRANKLIN:  The steamship is owned by the Leyland Line, and the great majority of the common shares and the majority of the preferred shares of the Leyland Line are owned in our various companies, with the result that the Leyland steamers are all consigned to our office in Boston, and we are their agents there.  I would like to say, further, that if you would like the Boston office called on the telephone, I can have that done, and find out just when the men left, as I am sure they are on their way.
SENATOR SMITH:  I know when they left, and that will be unnecessary.  In this telephone message was anything said about the log of the ship?
MR. FRANKLIN:  No, sir.  I can say this, that I asked Mr. Thomas to see that the men brought with them all the documents, charts, and so forth that they might need in giving their testimony; anything that they could think of that they might need.
SENATOR SMITH:  My telegram to the marshal asked for the log.
MR. FRANKLIN:  Then there is no doubt that it will be brought.
SENATOR SMITH:  I have forgotten if you stated, and so I will ask you, how long you have been an officer of the International Mercantile Co.?
MR. FRANKLIN:  Since the early part ­ about the spring ­ of 1903.
SENATOR SMITH:  And were you prior to that time connected with any of its constituent companies?
MR. FRANKLIN:  I had been; yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH:  What company?
MR. FRANKLIN:  The Atlantic Transport Co.
SENATOR SMITH:  What ships were a part of the Atlantic Transport Co.
MR. FRANKLIN:  At that time the Minnehaha, the Minneapolis, the Minnetonka, the Mesaba; all ships with names beginning with "M."
SENATOR SMITH:  Do you know whether or not a vessel of the White Star Line was lost in practically the same longitude and latitude where the Titanic was lost in the north Atlantic, with all its crew, about 10 years ago?
MR. FRANKLIN:  I suppose you are referring to the steamship Naronic, but my recollection is that the ship was lost about 1897 or 1898, or along there.
SENATOR SMITH:  Where was it lost?
MR. FRANKLIN:  I have not the slightest idea.
SENATOR SMITH:  Would anyone connected with your company be able to give us that information?
MR. FRANKLIN:  I do not think that anybody would be able to give you the information, because my recollection is that the ship was never heard from the time she left port.  I am not positive about that, but that is my recollection.
SENATOR SMITH:  No one ever heard from her?
MR. FRANKLIN:  I think not.
SENATOR SMITH:  Can you ascertain for me, without too much trouble who were the owners of the Naronic; whether it was a part of the White Star Line?
MR. FRANKLIN:  Do you mean that you would like me to submit some definite proof on that?
SENATOR SMITH:  Give me some definite information about it.
MR. FRANKLIN:  Now?
SENATOR SMITH:  No; but at your convenience.
MR. FRANKLIN:  It was owned by the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co., to the best of my knowledge and belief.
SENATOR SMITH:  Was the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co. connected in any way with what is now the White Star Line?
MR. FRANKLIN:  It is the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co. that owns the White Star Line.

SENATOR SMITH:  You gave the full capitalization of the International Mercantile Marine Co. when you were on the stand, but I think I failed to ask you if you knew whether that entire capitalization was full paid?
MR. FRANKLIN:  The entire capitalization that I mentioned was issued for value received, but it is not the entire capitalization of the company.  The authorized capitalization is $60,000,000 of common stock and $60,000,000 of preferred stock.  I testified that about $100,000,000, between the common and preferred, practically equally divided was outstanding.  The balance is in the treasury.  That was all issued for value received.
SENATOR SMITH:  And the bonds are the underlying obligations of that company.
MR. FRANKLIN:  I gave you a description of three classes of bonds; first, the 4 1/2 per cent collateral trust bonds, which have been issued to the public to the extent of $52,000,000, or about $52,000,000, as close as I can remember; then the 5 per cent bonds, which are a first mortgage on certain specified steamers and properties; about $19,000,000 of those.  And then there are underlying bonds of the subsidiary companies that are expiring from time to time.  For the information of the committee, and to have it as a matter of record, I would be very glad to furnish our report for 1911, which would be the latest official document issued by the company regarding its capitalization and assets, and so forth.
SENATOR SMITH:  That is, that would include the report of the International Marine Co., the parent company?
MR. FRANKLIN:  That is their report.
SENATOR SMITH:  And would embrace the salient features of the constituent companies?
MR. FRANKLIN:  The various ramifications.
SENATOR SMITH:  And would give a full list of its officers and directors.  And could we obtain from that report, or in any other way, a list of its stockholders?
MR. FRANKLIN:  That report would not show a list of its stockholders.
SENATOR SMITH:  Could that be obtained?
MR. FRANKLIN:  The shares are voting trust certificates; but we might be able to obtain the names of the holders of as many of them as we have on record.
SENATOR SMITH:  I assume that the stockholders are scattered in almost every part of the world?
MR. FRANKLIN:  They are scattered all over the world, yes.  As I have told you ,there is about $100,000,000 of stock outstanding.
SENATOR SMITH:  Would it be practical for you to furnish the committee with a list of the British stockholders and the American stockholders?
MR. FRANKLIN:  All I can say is that we would be glad to furnish to the committee, as we promised you, anything in our possession.  Anything that we have that will give you any information regarding the shareholders, we will be glad to furnish you.
SENATOR SMITH:  Well, I would like that information.
MR. FRANKLIN:  If we can get it for you we will do so.  The last report we have issued is for 1910.
SENATOR SMITH:  When is the next one due?
MR. FRANKLIN:  The next one is due in June of this year.
SENATOR SMITH:  Perhaps that might be more serviceable, in the way of giving the officers and the directors at the present time, than the report of 1910.
MR. FRANKLIN:  Our report for the year 1911 we will have ready and issue some time in June.

SENATOR SMITH:  I think we would like both of these reports, if agreeable; and the last one, if possible.
MR. FRANKLIN:  We can give you the 1910 report at once, but the 1911 report we can only give to you after we have gotten it out ­ gotten it ready.
SENATOR SMITH:  You mean by "at once" that you have it with you now?
MR. FRANKLIN:  Yes; the 1910 report.
SENATOR SMITH:  Produce it, if you have it.  You may file that with the stenographer, and it may be marked for identification.
The Eighth Annual Report of the International Mercantile Marine Co. was thereupon marked "Exhibit A, April 26, 1912, testimony of Mr. P. A. S. Franklin," and filed with the committee.
SENATOR SMITH:  Mr. Franklin, you were kind enough the other day to furnish us with the telegrams and cablegrams which passed between your company and the officers of the Titanic, and the officers and passengers ­ which includes Mr. Ismay ­ on the Carpathia.
MR. FRANKLIN:  Not the Titanic, Senator.
SENATOR SMITH:  I asked you with reference to the Titanic.
MR. FRANKLIN:  We never received and never sent any message to the Titanic that I know anything about.