This is a transcript of the October 27, 1993, Real-Time Conference with David Whatley of Simutronics, on the Multimedia, Desktop Video, and Virtual Reality RoundTable on GEnie! <[jPeg] P.HERRINGTON> Okay, everybody, let's get this show on the Digital Highway... <[jPeg] P.HERRINGTON> I'd like to introduce a good friend of mine and someone I've enjoyed working with for a while now... <[jPeg] P.HERRINGTON> David Whatley, who is CEO and founder of Simutronics... <[jPeg] P.HERRINGTON> As you undoubtedly know, Simutronics has some great multi-player games here on GEnie, but they have other exciting things in the works which we'll be talking about tonight. .. <[jPeg] P.HERRINGTON> David, I'll turn the floor over to you now for an opening comment. :) <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Howdy folks... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Let me describe basicly what we're attempting to do here... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> It can probably best be put by saying we're trying to take VR out of the lab and put it in the home. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> To that end we've been doing a couple things... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> First, we've been doing Multiplayer games for about seven years now. This gives a substantial amount of experience in building worlds... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> and now, in cooperation with a hardware research firm called RPI, we are interfacing with classic Virtual Reality hardware. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Namely VR Visors, consumer quality. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> We demonstrated a prototype at this years GENCON 93'. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> There we demonstrated a version of CyberStrike running with our prototype VR Visors. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> (I wish this were a live converence so I could let you all try them on...but...) <[jPeg] P.HERRINGTON> So do we. :) <[David] SIMUTRONICS> In lieu of that, I'll let you all just ask whatever you want about these things and what we are doing. (smile) <[Denny] DENNYA> We'll try to enjoy them virtually, David. :) <[Hoagy] H.DELAPLANT1> OK, well, well, approximitly how much are these things gonna cost? (I KNOW everyone's wonderin that!) <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Good question... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> I'll try and answer that by giving you an idea of the issues involved... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> First, the reason these things have been so slow getting to market so far is two-fold... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> 1) It is difficult to make a good pair of VR visors with full stereoscopic view and head-tracking that do not cost a lot of money to build. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> 2) Since there is no software (read: games) that use VR visors, who would buy one? <[David] SIMUTRONICS> This last problem is similar to a lot of game extras like light-guns. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> To produce them cheaply you have to prove a large market (say million units). <[David] SIMUTRONICS> The biggest expense, by the way, are the color LCD plates. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> These suckers are like the ones on laptop computers, but a whole lot smaller...at the same or better resolution (and thus a whole lot more expensive to produce). <[David] SIMUTRONICS> And you need two of them! <[David] SIMUTRONICS> As you may know, one of the big expenses for laptop computers are the LCD screens. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> I should point out that one main reason they are so expensive is because of the tarrifs our goverment has imposed on the importing of these devices. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> So there is a limit to how cheap we can get them no matter what. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Okay, so to answer your question... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Our goal is to have a device that sells for under $500 intially. This is pretty competitive with other neato gizmos with few applications on introduction...like say CD-ROM drives early on. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> It will be a two part sell probably... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> The unit scales up with expansion options... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Let me describe it a little... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> The VR Visor we have now weighs just 3oz. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Its entirely UNLIKE what you may have seen on TV, books or in a Virtuality machine. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> It looks, litteraly, like sunglases. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> The production unit of these is smaller, under 2oz and has the center of gravity right over the temple and are remarkably more comfortable. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Each eye has it's own color LCD plate. We have units with resolutions between 320x200 to 1024x768. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> You get about a 40 degree field of view with these, which is not great, but after using them your mind adjusts to the limited window. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> The field of view is basicly limited by other factors, such as the fact that no wide-screen output formats exist that would be at all standard. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Resolution on color LCDs is a fickle thing... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> It can take more than one pixel to make a single color, so the 320x200 versions don't give you the greatest view. Most simulator games, like Falcon or F15 III, run in 320x200 resoltuion but to do it on these LCS you need the 640x480 LCD plates. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> So this is a cost vs. quality issue that has to be addressed. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> The limited view angle is offset by the fact that the unit tracks your head...it knows where you are looking, and if the software is written to understand this it can change the view to track your head movements. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> We use an IR tracking system right now which is pretty good and cheap to produce. We have several other experimental trackers and we're in the process of trying to find the most reliable version, with the best range of tracking, for the lowest cost. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> If you are wondering how all this compares to other things coming out... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> The first thing on the market will probably be the SEGA Visors... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> To be frank, these are pretty awful. The resolution is bad, the unit is bulky, heavy and the tracking system is very unreliable. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Also a Sega Genesis doesn't have the CPU to do all that much in stereoscopic. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> We are aiming at the 486/Pentium crowd with our unit. And I say this because you need a LOT of CPU horsepower to produce stereoscopic images. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> A stereoscopic 3D view, like from a flight simulator, typically takes twice as long during the vector transformation and rendering process (since it's two different views in each eye). <[David] SIMUTRONICS> So you either need to be twice as fast or accept half the frame rate... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> And a slow frame rate in VR Visors can make you feel ill. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> We are considering selling a base unit with 640x480 LCDs and a head tracker for around the $500 mark. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> You can also by, as an upgrade, the stereoscopic option. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> The base unit plugs into your VGA card. The stereoscopic option is a new video card, basicly a dual VGA card (two VGA adapters on one card). <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Without it, you run in monoscopic (both eyes see the same image). <[David] SIMUTRONICS> By the way, monoscopic isn't all that bad. The headtracking is what really gives the illusion of being immersed... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> in fact a lot of the time you don't notice the stereoscopic unless the programmer goes out of his way to throw 3D objects in your face... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> in the same way that in a 3D movie the director has to go out of his way to throw long objects sticking "out of the screen" so you'll notice it. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Did I cover your question? (grin) <[Hoagy] H.DELAPLANT1> i think ya covered! :) thanx!!! OK, that was lot of good stuff... A couple more things... Have you thought about using the PowerPC based machines? And when do you think this is all going to be available to us? <[David] SIMUTRONICS> My project is basicly to get this stuff ready for home computers. Obviously this hardware will be useful for 3DOs, Nintentos, Genesiseses, and PowerPCs and whatever....maybe even a Newton! But here's the thing... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Right now Interactive Technology is the darling of Wall Street. Everyone is investing big bucks in a lot of speculative things (anything with Interactive on the label)... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> and I predict, as many do, that there is going to be a crash. What I've been telling our potential investors is that we have to be realistic about these technologies... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> and try not to scale them for the mass-market too early because they will end up failing due to a lack of CPU power or whatever. So we are spending our efforts on higher end PCs, where we know this thing will work and where there is at least some market to speak of. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> The hardware itself can be connected to other machines with minimal effort...it's rather selfcontained except for the stereoscopic board. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> I expect you will be seeing this stuff in late 95. The technology is there, but the problem is investment is pending applications... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> No one wants to fund hardware mfg until software exists... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> and no one wants to produce software for it if the hardware doesn't exist. (grin) <[David] SIMUTRONICS> So we are working a lot of multipartner deals. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Kinda like 3DO but on a much smaller scale. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> We have to basicly get a comittment from multiple partners for enough PC games that support this to justify a potential million unit sales. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> (say 6 or 7 GOOD simulator games) <[David] SIMUTRONICS> And then we're set...going to mass production would be handled by a 3rd party. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Our niche, besides bull-dogging this technology, is the online game potential...in other words, CyberSpace. Prepend mode is OFF. <[Robert] R.RICE1> SSpeaking of partnerships and investors and games...what size is your company(i.e. people> and are you <[Robert] R.RICE1> (prez of my company here...:) <[Robert] R.RICE1> basically..are you for sale/investing? <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Well the VR concern is actually two companies in partnership... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Simutronics presently employs five full time people, and around 16 subcontractors...though you are catching me just about when we are going to be ramping up to about twice that. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> I didn't quite get your question about investing, what was that? <[Robert] R.RICE1> sorry... are you for sale. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> We're a privately held corporation. We are not actively looking to cash-in, but no extremely reasonable offer would be unconsidered. (grin) <[David] SIMUTRONICS> You can write to email: NHARRIS for more info privately if you like. :) <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Neil is our Vice President, Marketing. <[Hoagy] H.DELAPLANT1> ]I've personally trked the virtuality system which has about a 90 degree fov... <[Hoagy] H.DELAPLANT1> and i think that 40 might lessen the sense of immersion greatly... <[Hoagy] H.DELAPLANT1> have you considered the LEEP optics system or something like that? <[David] SIMUTRONICS> The problem begins at the image generation stage where we have to be compatible with typicaly resoltuion modes used, say 320x200 or 640x480... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> The optics we use provide a good balance between FOV and pixel distortion... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> We've tried all sorts of FOV, and nothing has been entirely decided upon yet. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> One problem we have is in image generation.... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Ideally you should be generating at least 30 frames per second for smooth animation... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> If you go to 640x480, you have to do four times as much work as 320x200 in the rendering pipeline. This can be expensive when you are doing texturemapping, for example... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Now with stereoscopic you've DOUBLED the amount of work you have to do again. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> One thing we've done is use 640x480 and then, with our optics, varied the FOV and then, in the software rendering engine, we adjusted for the distortion... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> and ended up with some great views!!!! <[Hoagy] H.DELAPLANT1> That sounds like what I was asking...sounds good. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> However...your typically game developer isn't going to be doing this. To get a lot of products... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> we have to basicly go to Electronic Arts, Microprose, etc. and say "Hey, all you have to do to support fully immersive VR is these few changes" <[David] SIMUTRONICS> And we can get them to do it. But if you have to redesign your rendering engine for this, we won't get that much in the way of positive responses. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> So, it's a trade off between an ideal system and what we have to do to bring a good VR system to market. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Still, the head-tracking really makes the difference. In fact, when I'm developing with the VR Visors on... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> (I noticed this just recently) and the tracker is in the Fab shop being reworked... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> I cannot help but constantly turn my head to try and look around. It feels natural even when it's not hooked up. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> So when I'm turning, I'll start turning my head automatically. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Oh, and by the way... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> We don't stop with the visuals. We also have full holophonic sound where you hear things that occur in the VR world from the direction they occur (relative to your head orientation). <[David] SIMUTRONICS> You can see some of that in CyberStrike were we have multichannel sound with dopplar effects, etc. already. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Other interface issues have come up as well... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Our current visors allow you to see the keyboard, but it's a little difficult... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> so we're probably going to give up on that in favor of total immersion... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> But, as any flight simulator fan knows, there are a lot of things to control... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> We have a few other hardware options that might make it to production... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> One is voice command. SOme of you may have tried some form of this with your sound cards in the past... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> if you have, you probably found it was awful. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> We get around the limited capability of voice recognition by using the "voice mouse" technique... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> A "voice mouse" basicly uses vocal inputs to control menus rather than spoken commands... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Until voice recogonition becomes reliable, the "voice mouse" is both quick and useable and a good alternative. Basicly the software only has to recongize a few very DISTINCT sounds that cannot be confused... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> (you get to pick them)...for opening menus and moving to an option and selecting it. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> This would over lay on the screen, like a HUD. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Interestingly enough...the people we have testing this have grown attached to using the sounds "GOO" and "GA" a lot... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> So, imagine walking into a room with a bunch of people wearing wierd shades going "GOO GOO GA GOO GA GA GOO GA" all day long. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> :) <[David] SIMUTRONICS> One other thing... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> We also have a unit that tracks eye movement. There are some issues with that which must be addressed before that can be commercial, however. <[Hoagy] H.DELAPLANT1> How much for the voice hard/software? <[David] SIMUTRONICS> The voice system we use is Covox's commercial unit...nothing fancy. The trick is our implementation! <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Implementation is the key to the whole thing... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Including the rendering process, as I mentioned before you risk dropping your frame rate by half when you go to stereoscopic... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> so we've spent considerable time coming up with some software tricks to nearly eliminate this problem. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> I'll be sharing some of these software development secrets with the community at the next Computer Game Developers Conference. <[Zubdew] J.G.H.> Hiya David, Have you heard of the new Atari 64 game machine the Jaguar? Would you consider developing anything for that or you just keeping with IBM for now? I can get you intouch with the people at Atari (or you can stop in our RTC (page 475) after the New York premier) <[Zubdew] J.G.H.> (shameless plug) Oh that RTC is the 4th of November ;> <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Of course I've heard of it! My VP Marketing is an old Atari marketing guy. :) <[David] SIMUTRONICS> I like the idea that Atari is sticking the technology flag way out there... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> since I'm entirely dissapointed with 3DO. I know nothing about the specs of the machine... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> so I can't say more than that. But from what I've read, it looks like it can really blastsome bits... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> I will say that awhile back I was solicited to work on the Lynx... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> and, frankly, I'm glad I didn't now. I hope Atari can market the thing properly and sign up GOOD developers quickly. Any missteps and it will go nowhere. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Same can be said of Commodore. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> And it's 3DO-like machine it just announced. <[Denny] DENNYA> David, can you tell us a little about the software that's under development for this technology? Are you guys doing games and/or other stuff? Anything specific you can talk about or hint at? <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Well my job is to do "proof of concept" for the software. To that extent we've reworked CyberStrike (an existing multiplayer game onGEnie, page 1380) to work with the VR Visor. In that one rework we demonstrate that this works with PC hardware... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> and that it works as a multi-user environment (aka CyberSpace) over low-bandwidth carriers... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> I might point out that we've gotten lots of back-channel angry calls from... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> folks who have been spending tens of millions on high-bandwidth systems... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> and, as justification to their investors, have told them that this high-bandwidth technology is a REQUIREMENT for the types of applications we've been saying can be done NOW. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> After several "OH yeah, PROVE IT" requests....we did. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Our next step is working out some deals with major PC game producers to commit to products for the unit (underway)... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> and that will fullfill what the hardware investors are waiting for. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> The trick was showing both of them it can be done, and it isn't expensive. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> I might point out that the VR technology we are using... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> has several key elements that have just recently received their patent. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> This will have ramifications for others who are working on these devices. :) <[David] SIMUTRONICS> This was important, as well, from an investor standpoint. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Anyway, we don't get those calls anymore. Oh, by the way... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> The company TV Answer, who has spent about $50 mil so far, has come out with their FIRST product... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> they changedtheir name to E*ON. Good job guys! <[David] SIMUTRONICS> I think that about covers everything regarding the unit itself. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> As for software, if this thing goes through it will be bundled with at least one game and several others to follow. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Or at the same time. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Non-game projects are also being considered, but that's not my end of the deal. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> (I know, for example, a major CAD producer has a version that works in VR...that would be neat!) <[Robert] R.RICE1> you mentioned that it was infra-red based..who is it by... <[Robert] R.RICE1> does it affect the immersion the way around??? <[Robert] R.RICE1> (can it do 360 in all 6 degrees? (pitch roll yaw) <[David] SIMUTRONICS> You have a total of 180 degrees left/right, and something less than 90 up/down... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Only those two axis... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Here are some things to think about... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> First, regarding the # of axis... we had a problem with the input capabilities of the IBM... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> We want to keep the costs down, so we're using Joystick 2 as the input for the head tracker... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> that leaves us with two axis. We did some work with trackers that have up to 6... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> but didn't get a substantial benefit from it for game applications. Perhaps for CAD and such, a higher end system that is, it would be worth it. <[Robert] R.RICE1> good point :) <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Also, to put this product in the mass market we've had to make some design decisions based on consumer saftey... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Let's face it SOMEONE...SOMEDAY is going to claim they were injured because they were immersed in VR and didn't see that MAC truck. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Or didn't see that the modem caught fire. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> In terms of headtracking... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> We actually want to limit it's capabilities to those movements that a person can comfortably and safely perform while sitting. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> If they start twisting in their chair, as we've had happen in our full 360 tracker, people fall out of it. All the time. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> I've had people bonk their heads on the table trying to look under a VR object! <[David] SIMUTRONICS> And quite often they swivel right into someone standing next to them. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> The limited head tracker we use not only prevents this (since you stop turning when the view stops tracking automatically)... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> but is MUCH less expensive to produce. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> In fact, dirt cheap. <[Robert] R.RICE1> we've had problems with people smacking their heads on our rollbars..:) <[David] SIMUTRONICS> And it has to work in ALL environments you would find a PC... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> so most trackers that handle full ranges of motion have problems with sensor placement. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Ours requires only one unit on top of the monitor and the part that's hooked up to the VR visor. <[Robert] R.RICE1> what about lag time? <[David] SIMUTRONICS> By the way, our VR Visor by RPI is called an HMSI, Head Mounted Sensory Interface. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> The unit has no noticeable lag time, however... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> No latiency in the hardware, but... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> We do introduce a bit of it in our software in an effort to smooth it out... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> since it will "jitter" annoyingly if you don't filter it a bit. We have it where we can adjust it up and down... <[David] SIMUTRONICS> You can sit it high and it will be this great smooth panning motion (about 5 seconds BEHIND your movements), or it can be absolulute tracking of your head position. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> WIth some jitter which can be anoying since your eyes don't compensate for it when looking at a LCD plate's image like they do when you look at things in the real world. <[jPeg] P.HERRINGTON> Thanks, David... this has been great... <[jPeg] P.HERRINGTON> Please stay for some open chatting if you can spare the time. <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Sure. :) <[Luis] L.SALA> <> <[Robert] R.RICE1> And thank you everybody for coming tonight! <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Aw gee. :) <[Denny] DENNYA> Thanks guys. I want this stuff! <[Luis] L.SALA> Same here! <[Robert] R.RICE1> ditto! <[Hoagy] H.DELAPLANT1> Thanks alot, Dave and everyone else here! <[Robert] R.RICE1> really! <[David] SIMUTRONICS> I hope I gave out enough details. <[Luis] L.SALA> Very exciting!!! <[Robert] R.RICE1> :) <[David] SIMUTRONICS> Having been IMMERSED in VR for awhile now, I forget which things people might not be familiar with. :) [end of file]