| From: | Martin Nicholson |
| Date: | 10 Aug 2000 at 13:49:59 |
| Subject: | Re: CDs & Record Decks |
Hiya greenboy
On 09-Aug-00, greenboy wrote:
> Really? My turntable and cartridge (which are moderately cheap) cost
> more than any of my CD stuff. For that matter it cost more than the
> DVD players I am seeing these days.
To be honest though, judging from your posts, your not exactly Mr "Joe
Average" where HiFi is concerned. Then again, maybe the situation in
the States is different from that here. Here, I would say most
people's experience of HiFi comes from cheap Midi Stacking systems, in
fact from pseaudo stacking system, which aree really just one casing
made to look as if the components are seperate. As usual with these
systems, more money goes into looks than into sound and any money
going spare will tend to be spent on the areas most used, i.e., CD
player, and not the turntables. Thus the turntables tend to be shoddy,
with light plastic platters and plastic tonearms. At this level of
investment, CD players will nearly always sound better, the turntable
doesn't even have a fighting chance.
> Minimalism in hi-fi equipment may be desirable to some, but good
> design overcomes the problems you mention. If you are worried about
> crap in hi- fi gear one of the first places you should look are the
> RCA jacks, which are one of the most gawdawful connectors ever. In a
> good system more noise is introduced in the tonearm/cartridge/vinyl
> than the rest of the signal chain in use, combined. Especially at
> higher volumes.
To be honest, minimalism is any design can be a good thing. Why make
it more complex than it needs to be? Still I take your point :)
Especially with regards to phono connectors, I fitted gold plated ones
to this amp but who knows, maybe one day i'll fit XLRs :)
Nevertheless, the more flashing LEDs, capacitors, switches, that are
in the circuit then the more noise may be introduced. It's all
cumulative, so why bother with functions that don't add anything to
the functionality of the equipment? If the tonearm is a large source
of noise, it doesn't mean it'll swamp out the electrical noise does it?
All that will happen is you've just added more noise to the signal.
> Good circuitry - and tons of it - from the MI is used for mastering
> both records and CDs. EQs are part of the picture. They are
> omnipresent in all aspects of live music making, recording, and
> playback. For good reason: they are efficient at audio problem
> solving. Unfortunately, much of the circuitry in cheaper home hi-fi
> is not up to snuff in design and at the high end purist
> tunnel-vision tend to dominate.
That's the problem, the domestic side. I'm not arguing about the
production side, they can afford decent equipment. Most domestic
equalizers that I've seen are worthless anyway, they are judged on the
basis that more sliders are good, more lights are good. The way in
which they adjust the frequency bands seems totally different to
professional equipment, i.e., the db gain/loss and the way in which it
is rolled off. By and large, I can see the use for them in cars, where
the listening environment is so awful, you need to emphasize certain
frequencies, but in the average home I don't think they are worth
consideration.
> As far as your "People get too caught up with the technology and
> with measurements" statement: listeners benefit from people who
> actually use measurement to hone designs and debunk fake science,
> and are beholden to technologies in extreme - without "technology"
> there would be no advance in music making, recording, or archival.
>
> Instrumentation is in heavy use by the people in the industry making
> music, and it informs the standards which engineers compete with.
> The people with golden ears are that developed partially because
> things have been quantified and held up as examples. People who
> listen for pleasure are benefiting from that whether they ever
> attempt to develop their understanding and ear further or not.
>
> Technology makes better acoustic and electronic instruments and
> playback possible at better prices. It also makes playback in the
> home possible, where a level of performance only royalty may have
> enjoyed in past ages, is commonly available today. Anybody who is
> dissing technology and listening to or playing music hasn't thought
> very deeply on it, or is either a fool or a hypocrite.
Obviously we need the numbers, etc, at the design/build stage of
equipment, I'm not arguing that we don't. I'm sorry if it appeared
that I did. I'll amplify on this after the next bit.
>> If whatever you have can make music, the numbers won't matter. The
>> whole point of HiFi *should* be that the equipment doesn't get in
>> the way of the music.
>
> The numbers matter. That's partially how the good stuff gets
> designed in the first place. That's how technology can be
> historically compared. If you are listening to a good CD or vinyl on
> a good system numbers were very much involved in the recording and
> the mastering process. And instrumentation keeps engineers and
> product honest.
The point I was trying to make, is that at the consumer end the
numbers are not of prime importance. How it sounds is the most
important thing, and primarily, how it sounds to you. Most people
don't even understand what the numbers mean, they become some kind of
secret language or black art. Reminds me of a sketch on "Not the Nine
O'Clock News", which you probably won't have seen unfortunately. The
whole point of the sketch being, that technical terms and names were
being bandied about, and it was the apparent understanding of what it
meant that was important, even though the customer didn't have a clue.
For example, I have a Leak Class A amplifier that's rated for 20
watts, I also have a Sony amp on the amiga that's rated at 75 watts,
but it's a Class B amp. Most people will equate power with "being
good" and I'll bet you that a lot of people on this list would choose
the Sony has the better amplifier, because it's 75 watts and therefore
louder; except it isn't the louder of the two amps. Has you no doubt
know. The Leak blows the Sony way.
So I think numbers and technology do get in the way, at the consumer end of the market. People will go into the local electronics emporium, and buy stuff based on the flashing lights and the numbers. If they audition the equipment, it'll be right there on the shop shelfs. They rarely have the equipment set up and audition it properly.
Worse still, when they finally get it all home the chances of it being
set-up on decent stands, with good cables and interconnects aren't
high either. The majority of people do not seem to realise that good
stands and cables can make a £500 HiFi outperform equipment that may
be twice the cost, but set-up badly.
>> Vinyl wasn't killed off by a superior system, it was killed off by
>> superior marketing.
>
> 1) Vinyl hasn't been killed off. I have two meters plus of vinyl to
> attest to the fact. And are new records not being made?
I'm sorry but two metres of vinyl doesn't mean it's alive ;) Again,
maybe the situation over there is different to that here, but if you
were to go into any of the large music stores here, you are unlikely
to see any vinyl at all. If you can find a specialist store, you'll be
in luck, or maybe a second hand shop.
Now, if the major music outlets aren't stocking it, then to all
intents and purposes it is, if not dead, certainly stagnant.
> 2) At this point marketing has little to do with vinyl not being top
> dog. The industry that makes music - the actual workers in the
> industry - recognize the tradeoffs sonically and mechanically. They
> will never as a whole be that interested in vinyl except that it is
> a market. See 3)
Well, I was talking about back when CD was released. That was
certainly a major marketing success for CD which was based on
"perceived" advantages over Vinyl, as well as some real ones.
To be honest, I think the fact that you can charge more money for a
CD, while at the same time spend much less in producing it, has at
least as much to do with the reasons why it has become the industry's
preferred media ;-)
> 3) Marketing has largely been responsible for a resurgence in vinyl
> issue. There's money to be had there. Record companies and
> manufacturers are tapping into a market that will pay ridiculous
> sums for technology that often gets by on spin (pun intended). There
> is some good affordable stuff out there, but make no mistake - there
> are some profit ratios that make sure snake oil is available and
> flowing copiously.
But the resurgence, at least here, is pretty small fish and really
only a specialist market :( You are unlikely to find most music
outlets here stocking anything more than a fraction of the available
album catalogue.
With Regards
Worzel
Nick Worzel on #IRC AlternativeNET
ICQ UIN 14617500
mailto:martin@madscientist.demon.co.uk
I used to work in a fire hydrant factory. You couldn't park anywhere near the place.
Quote carefully and read all ADMIN:README mails