Here's a lively discussion taken from BLINKTALK; a blind support national conference which you will find interesting. Date : 22-May-91 22:51 From : David Goldfield To : All Subject : Hot Topic Well, now that i got your attension with this subject line, here's what's on my mind! This echo is in great need of new and fresh HOT discussion, so I will initiate. As many of you surely know, many services around the country, (services of all types) offer discounts and various price breaks for us handicapped folks, especially us poor blinks. For example, in Philadelphia, (my home town) a blind person can ride a bus or train for half the normal fare. Amtrak offers similar discounts, although not 50 percent off, of course. Personally, I NEVER accept such discounts or favors just because I'm blind and I encourage all of you to do the same. I am in favor of discounts for groups of people such as senior citizens, people on low incomes, but why should I get a discount on the train when I make just as much money (maybe more) than the sighted guy sitting next to me who has to fork out the bucks. Once, while I was paying the fare on the train, I nearly got into an argument with the collector because he thought I was nuts. A woman next to me defended him by saying to me that other groups of people get discounts too, such as (my favorite) folks in the military. Well She just pushed the wrong button. I told her that I do not deserve a discount just because I am blind and furthermore I felt her argument was rediculous as I feel people in the military deserve a discount even less, as the military is involved in the profession of killing. (hey, Willie. The traffic here may increase 100fold because of this post, so watch out.) i realize I am mixing a variety of topics, but ther's only so many times I can read about airlines and the Nls Database. Sorry, guys, but a man's gottaa do what a man's gotta do. I look forward to your messages. Date : 24-May-91 11:34 From : Phil Scovell To : David Goldfield Subject : Re: Hot Topic Hello David, Glad you brought up this topic. I don't know how much I agree with your views however. Denver doesn't allow half price or even reduced fees for blind bus riders. They do, on the other hand, have special rides where by they will pick up the person at their home and drive them directly to their job. They only charge the normal fee. The bus service in Denver in many ways is poor and doesn't travel all over the metro area. Denver itself only has about five hundred thousand people. The whole metro area has about two million. In another words, most of the people live in the smaller town areas around Denver where the bus service is thin. In light of what you said, would you not use this special bus service? At least in Denver, the blind are not charge for local directory assistance calls. Would you refuse this service, too. What about your income tax? Do you believe the blind shouldn't use what used to be called double exemption? Although I used to be very active in the NFB when I lived in Nebraska, I was one of the states NFB vice presidents, I never fully agreed with some of these stands they took. My reason is this. For a blind person to be as independent as a sighted person, they have to spent three times the amount of money. For example, for a thousand dollars a sighted person can buy a nice computer complete with a monitor. A blind person, on the other hand, has to spend nearly that much more just to make it talk. I could, of course, name many other such expenses a blind person has such as opticons, talking calculators, and the like. My sighted kids have little two dollar digital watches but I have to pay fifty dollars for the same thing. In short, it costs a lot of money to be blind. If, that is, you want to be independent. I just purchased an Arkenstone in order to read my own mail and other printed materials. I can't write it off on my income tax as a personal expence. A sighted person doesn't need a four thousand dollar device to read. Recently a large Denver grocery store started home deliveries to anyone and everyone who wanted to use the service. After a few weeks, the service proved to be so successful, they now offer to wave the $9 fee for delivery to the handicapped...I guess that means the blind, too. Do I take the $9 discount? You bet! Why? Because my wife and I are both blind with three kids. We spend about $150 per week on food. There's no way my wife and I could take all the food on a city bus so we'd have to pay for a cab. The cab fare would run about $10 round trip. We buy weekly. I'm saving about $35 per month by not paying the delivery fee. I didn't ask the store to offer this service free to the blind but I will take advantage of it because that's an extra $30 to $40 per month I have to spend on food for my family that I wouldn't have otherwise. I'm guessing, David, you'd not only not use the delivery service but if you did, you'd pay the extra $9 because you wouldn't want any special treatment? Speaking of special treatment, do you use the Library of Congress talking book program? Why? Millions of tax payers dollars are spent to support that special service for the blind. If you pay full price for the city bus, why not refuse the talking book program? David, do you believe the government should be required to label the buttons in an elavator in Braille? That's special treatment, is it not? My mom rides the city bus for just 15 cents because senior citizens get a discount. David, when you turn sixty, will you accept senior citizen discounts? If you would accept such discounts as a senior citizen then why not as a blind person? Since this will be my only post on this subject, let me state my personal opinion for the record. Since it costs bunches of money to be blind and independent, too, I don't think a blind person should even have to pay income tax no matter how much money he or she might make. That would make it possible to spend more of our money on things that help us remain independent. Oh, one more thing, I thought the military was paid to defend us; not paid to kill. Would you rather live in a country which doesn't have a defence such as Kuwait? Why do I have the feeling I'm going to regret the statement of my own personal opinion? Phil. Date : 24-May-91 07:49 From : Walter Siren To : David Goldfield Subject : Hot Topic DG> Well, now that i got your attension with this subject line, here's what's DG> on my mind! This echo is in great need of new and fresh HOT discussion, so DG> I will initiate. You can say that again. DG> As many of you surely know, many services around the country, DG> (services of all types) offer discounts and various price breaks for us DG> handicapped folks, especially us poor blinks. For example, in Philadelphia, DG> (my home town) a blind person can ride a bus or train for half the normal DG> fare. Amtrak offers similar discounts, although not 50 percent off, of DG> course. Personally, I NEVER accept such discounts or favors just because DG> I'm blind and I encourage all of you to do the same. I am in favor of DG> discounts for groups of people such as senior citizens, people on low DG> incomes, but why should I get a discount on the train when I make just as DG> much money (maybe more) than the sighted guy sitting next to me Of course that same arguement can be the same with any other group that gets a discount. There are some senior citizens who are very well off also, but they still get the discount. Yet, they are getting it just because they are old. DG> fork out the bucks. Once, while I was paying the fare on the train, I DG> nearly got into an argument with the collector because he thought I was DG> nuts. A woman next to me defended him by saying to me that other groups of DG> people get discounts too, such as (my favorite) folks in the military. DG> Well DG> She just pushed the wrong button. I told her that I do notdeserve a DG> discount just because I am blind and furthermore I felt her argument was DG> rediculous as I feel people in the military deserve a discount even less, DG> as the military is involved in the profession of killing. Well, there I think that you went astray. They are in the proffession of defending us, and the killing is unfortunately a result of that defense. Well, I know that there are those who say that the desert storm was not defending us, but it depends how one looks at it. If we let agretion remain unchecked, then it will eventually get to us. We saw that with world war 2. DG> i realize I am mixing a variety of topics, but ther's only so many times I DG> can read about airlines and the Nls Database. You can say that again. It would be a nice change to have something different, but even this subject was touched on from the various aspects before on here, but it has been a while. As far as turning down the discounts that are available to us, if they are there, then I will accept them. Some of them I have mixed feeling about, but if they are going to give them to other groups, then I have no problem with getting them for us. The free mailing privelege, when it was first given to us, I felt weird about that one, but I can see the arguements for it. Of course back in the olden days, it was strictly for reading material and the like, and not for letters. I deffinitely think that it should stand, because we can't go down to the local library like our sighted friends and borrow a book. I realize that our mailing media does cost more to send if they would charge for it, so I can understand the free privelege, but if they would charge us the same for sending a tape letter, or braille letter, as a print letter, I would have no problem with that one. However, there are a lot of blind people that are not very well off financially, and there only form of entertainment is those pen pals, or tape pals, and I would not want to see them deprived of that. So I am afraid that there probably is no easy solution. If the privelege is there, and if you take advantage of it or not, should be your business, and if you don't, it will not make any difference to others anyway, so why not take it. Btw, do you accept your extra income tax exemption for the fact that you are blind? Walter Date : 24-May-91 09:27 From : Margo Downey To : David Goldfield Subject : Re: Hot Topic Am not expressing an opinion in this message about discounts, but, what do people think of this statement: The unemployment/underemployment of blind people makes it necessary for services to give discounts since blind people don't yet in general make as much money as others." Just a question to open this topic wider. Date : 24-May-91 12:29 From : Dan Kysor To : David Goldfield Subject : Hot Topic that's all well and good about not excepting discounts because of your blindness and your financial equality with your sighted counterparts but statistically, you are in the minority of blind income earners and what about the 80% to 90% unemployed blind? dan Date : 24-May-91 14:19 From : Mary Otten To : David Goldfield Subject : Re: Hot Topic I'm not quite sure where to start with your hot topic. In principle, Ia agree with you that nobody should get a break just because of some condition or other, and that would include senior citizens. Why should a senior citizen get a discount when they may be making or have salted away more money than you or Iwill ever have? In practice, however, since our society does not operate on that principle, that is, people are not charged for services based solely on their ability to pay, I have a little harder time with your position. Maybe I'm just rationalizing, but I figure Ipay a lot of money in taxes for services I will never be able to use, cannot have access to. I'm thinking of public libraries, public parks, all sorts of adult education classes to which I have no access because Ieither can't get there or they don't provice material in a usable medium, etc. Therefore, if somebody wants to give me a break on public transit systems, city buses etc, I'll take it and really Idon't feel llike I'm getting a big break. Isort of look at it as a quid pro quo for some of the things Ipay for but can't use. I suppose society doesn't look at it that way, but Iguess at this point in my life Idon't care. Iused to be really militant on this issue, felt the way you do and in fact, got into arguments with L.A. city bus drivers when Itried to pay the full fair. Now blind people ride free there. It used to be a reduced fair. By the way, if you feel the way you do, Ihope you don't claim the blindness exemption on your taxes. Of course, if you itemize, you can't get it anyway, and if you own a house, you pobably itemize, so that might not be a relevant point to make to you. Date : 24-May-91 15:18 From : Beth Hatch-alleyne To : David Goldfield Subject : Hot Topic David; I agree with you one hundred percent. I travel by bus, air, and train quite a bit. I don't feel that just because I'm blind that I should get a discount. Many people argue that blind people are in general at a lower income than sighted people, and that just the fact they're going out is good enough to warrant half fair. I don't buy this premes. I've been on many busses, here in Rochester, and other places I lived and visited, where after paying full fair, the driver would try to give me back money. I politely declined, saying I'd prefer to pay full fare. I've had more of a problem when drivers ask passengers, some with crutches or walkers, to move from the front seats of the bus so I can sit there. Again, I feel blindness isn't a reason why I should sit in the front of the buss. I am not going to fall on my face if I have to stand on a crowded bus with everyone else. I am perfectly capable of finding a seat without someone feeling they have to give up their seat for me. Granted, I usually sit up front if I'm not getting off at a stop other than the last one so the driver can see me and not use it as that as an excuse that he/she forgot my stop, but I sit in the second, third, or fourth, row, all within asking distance of the driver to make sure I'm not missing my stop. I'm not going to go any further on this, as I'll give you guys a break and let you read other messages. But if we are going to want equal treatment from the siighted community, then we need to pay equal rates, Beth. --- Date : 25-May-91 08:31 From : Mika Pyyhkala To : David Goldfield Subject : Re: Hot Topic Hello David, This is a good topic to start discussing in the echo again, we've touched on it a bit before too. Anyway, up until I was about 16 or 17 years old, (I am now 18) I would accept the free rides on our public transportation systems. However, at that point, I felt that the rides were unjustified. I feel that since sighted people have to pay for their transportation that blind people, or anyone else for that matter, also should have to pay. Also, I agree that any discounts should be bassed on income. Also, I feel that by riding the subway or whatever for free, you are sending a political statement to the people around you that reenforces stereotypical roles believed to be played by blind people. If we want equality, we should also accept the responsibility it intails. I too have had difficulty in paying the faire, the same type you've had. One subway driver told me that it was against the law for him to charge me, and I told him that I wanted to pay, and he said that if you want to be that way fine. Another bus driver told me that I should make a donation to a church instead of paying for the bus. In response to the curosity of the MBTA employees, this week in fact, I am just completing a one-page flyer on why I pay for my public transportation. I have to make a few minor corrections, and print it and copy it. So, when somebody asks, I can just give them one. I can also post in the echo when I get it ready, which hopefully will be in the next few days. Another question to ponder is that if one were absolutely poor, and living in the street for instance, and blind, if we would take the free ride. If we did, we would compromise our pricniples, if we did not, we might not be able to get off the street, or go anywhere. This may also relate a bit to the topic someone brought up about whether a blind person would rather be mugged, or victimized in nother way by a criminal, instead of being treated differently because of blindndess. -Mika Date : 25-May-91 07:20 From : Mary Otten To : Phil Scovell Subject : Re: Hot Topic I agre absolutely with all of your message, except the part about not paying income tax. Ican't immagine thinking that a blind person shouldn't pay, no matter how much money he or she makes. That is simply going too far. Date : 25-May-91 08:20 From : Walter Siren To : Phil Scovell Subject : Re: Hot Topic PS> Since this will be my only post on this subject, let me PS> state my personal opinion for the record. Since it costs bunches of money PS> to be blind and independent, too, I don't think a blind person should even PS> have to pay income tax no matter how much money he or she might make. That PS> would make it possible to spend more of our money on things that help us PS> remain independent. Oh, one more thing, I thought the military was paid to PS> defend us; not paid to kill. Would you rather live in a country which PS> doesn't have a defence such as Kuwait? PS> Why do I have the feeling I'm going PS> to regret the statement of my own personal opinion? Phil, I don't know. I think that it was well said. Walter Date : 25-May-91 10:06 From : Walter Siren To : Mary Otten Subject : Re: Hot Topic MO> do, Ihope you don't claim the blindness exemption on your taxes. Of course, MO> if you itemize, you can't get it anyway, Mary, I would not bet any money on this, but I am almost sure that you can get the extra exemption if you don't itemize. However, it is not really an exemption anymore, it is a tax credit which is not quite as good as the previous exemption was. Walter Date : 25-May-91 09:40 From : Walter Siren To : Beth Hatch-alleyne Subject : Hot Topic BH> David; I agree with you one hundred percent. I travel by bus, air, and BH> train quite a bit. I don't feel that just because I'm blind that I should BH> get a discount. Many people argue that blind people are in general at a BH> lower income than sighted people, and that just the fact they're going out BH> is good enough to warrant half fair. I don't buy this premes. Beth, tell me, are you going to pay the full price of a hotel room in New Orleans when you come to the NFB convention. You don't think that price that NFB negotiated is a full hotel price do you. It is far from it. As far as convention rates are concerned, there isn't a sighted convention who can get anywhere near that rate. There are sighted conventions who come down here a lot larger than the NFB, and there rates are not discounted near that much. Walter Date : 25-May-91 13:11 From : Tim Cumings To : Beth Hatch-alleyne Subject : Re: Hot Topic When I'm on a bus or a subway and someone offers 6give to give me their seat, I politely depine deacline and just say that I've been sitting all day long. Date : 25-May-91 14:47 From : David Goldfield To : Mary Otten Subject : Re: Hot Topic Mary, First, let me say that I have validated you on Blazie Engr.'s BBs. As far as your message goes. Your point about senior citizens is, in a way, a good one, although so many folks, even younger people, have managed to save here and there, and it would be impossible to keep track of who's got money and who doesn't. Basically, senior citizens, in my opinion, deserve a break because they've lived longer than me and have worked and paid their dues. i also want to say that I don't give myself any tax breaks just because I don't see. As far as paying for services you can't use, I kind of see your point, except that -- don't we all in some way pay for a service we can't use. Yes, it's true that my tax money goes for things i can never benefit from. In my opinion, that does not entitle me to a discount on a bus or train. My taxes go for things that not only can't I use, but don't believe in either, like the military. Sure wish I could do something about that. At least I can vote, but I'm getting off topic. Date : 25-May-91 15:10 From : David Goldfield To : Walter Siren Subject : Re: Hot Topic Walter, i agree about the free matter privelege. Since Braille takes up much more space than print, and since Braille paper is much heavier being able to send material in the mail for free is a good service. Date : 25-May-91 15:21 From : David Goldfield To : Phil Scovell Subject : Re: Hot Topic Phil, You won't regre stating your opinion, as far as i am concerned. I will try to answer your arguments which were excellent, by the way. I do jnot claim a tax exemption. However, tax writeoffs for special equipment, like an ocr, I agree with. the Nls program is not one I have a problem with. My problem is with discounts for services such as travel like busses or trains. I am not saying that essential services like putting Braille on elevatore should be done away with. Because this is Blinktalk and not the Politics echo i am not going into my views about the military. As far as shuttle services, yes I would use it if a bvus could not come to my area. Date : 26-May-91 09:48 From : Mika Pyyhkala To : Phil Scovell Subject : Hot Topic Hi Phil, You are correct that to be blind, and independent costs lots and lots of money. For example, equipment such as adaptive computers, reading machines, and much more! However, to say that blind people should not have to pay income tax, or that we should receive special discounts on things with transportation, I believe, is the wrong way to address the fact that it is expensive to be blind. For instance, if Malcolm Forbes, Bill Gates, or Donald Trump became blind, should they be exempted from income tax? Also, I believe that if we take discounts on transportation systems, we send a message to the general public around us. If the average Joe sees a blind person getting on a subway for free, he will at least subtully reenforce the notion that blind people should be treated differently. This atitude can manefest itself into otther problems. The answer to the expenses of blindness is not tax rebats, and transportation discounts, it's encreased funding assistance for the things we need, i.e. braille, adaptive computer equipment, etc. This will help us, while not conveying negative messages to the public. When the public sees that blind people are exempted from tax, do you think they get the feeling that blind peeople should be treated equally, and share in the responsibility of a society? They may not even realize that it is more expensive to be blind, and just think the tax break is there to take care of us. Keep up the discussion, Mika Date : 26-May-91 10:07 From : Mika Pyyhkala To : Walter Siren Subject : Re: Hot Topic In your message, you asked, if conventioneers, particularly those who are opposed to such things as transportation discounts, are going to pay full price for hotel rooms. You also pointed out that larger conventions come to New Orleans, and do not receive as great a discount, alluding to the idea that this discount is not just basssed on the fact that NFB will bring a lot of people to the hotel, but that NFB will bring a lot of blind people to the hotel. This is a good point to explore and discuss! My first question is if other groups, for instance nonproffit organizations, can receive this same discount. Or, were you referring to when corporations come to conventions in New Orleans. Another question that arrises, is that the two organizations probably have contracts with the hotel to use a particular chain frequently. This may also account for the discount. -Mika Date : 26-May-91 14:07 From : David Goldfield To : Mika Pyyhkala Subject : Re: Hot Topic Myka, Don't have much to say about your response. When someone agrees with you there isn't much more you can say. Your point about stereotypes was a good one. By riding on ther subway for free, you are making the statement that blind people deserve a break. Maybe we do in certain areas, but not on the subway. Thanks. Date : 26-May-91 20:51 From : Tim Cumings To : Mika Pyyhkala Subject : Re: Hot Topic --- Opus-CBCS 1.14 Date : 26-May-91 13:07 From : Dan Kysor To : Walter Siren Subj: Hot Topic well i agree with phil too but dosn't blind adaptive equipment, clothing, travel expense (cars purchases etc) qualify as a tax right off? Date : 26-May-91 16:33 From : Beth Hatch-alleyne To : Walter Siren Subject : Hot Topic Walter; although I appreciate the points you made in your message, there is a difference between what I was saying and the NFB convention rates.....Don't stop reading yet, Walter, I'm not going to drop the subject. I have never used half fare when I travel as an individual, as I said before. I have been to many conventions, state conventions for the NFB, where we paid the same rates as sighted conventioneers. We have to guarantee the hotel that they'll be 300 or so people at the NFB convention, that is why we get that price. I'll do some research on it to find out more about this, but I have heard of groups of sighted conventioneers having thousands of people in one hotel and getting great rates. Although I know where you're leading in this message, I believe there is more to it than you think. The NFB gets the same rates for that huge group of people, just as sighted conventioneers do. Every convention I've been to, Massachusets, New Hampshire, Vermont, New York, we've always paid the same as sighted conventioneers. I also got a good deal from the airline, not because I'm blind, as I didn't tell them, but because I shopped around for the best deal, which is what anyone does who has such a huge convention. I hope this is a bit clear, if not, Walter, please leave me another message and we'll talk about it more, Beth. --- Date : 27-May-91 01:13 From : Beth Hatch-alleyne To : Margo Downey Subject : Re: Hot Topic Margo; at the risk of repeting myself, please see my messages to Walter and others, Beth. --- Date : 26-May-91 17:47 From : Walter Siren To : Mika Pyyhkala Subject : Re: Hot Topic MP> My first question is if other groups, for instance MP> nonproffit organizations, can receive this same discount. I am talking about proffit and nonproffit organizations. MP> Another question that arrises, is that the two organizations MP> probably have contracts with the hotel to use a particular chain MP> frequently. MP> This may also account for the discount. Does the NFB stay only in Hyat hotels? Walter Date : 26-May-91 13:18 From : Tom Gerhart To : Tim Cumings Subject : Re: Hot Topic TC> When I'm on a bus or a subway and someone offers 6give to give TC> me their seat, I politely depine deacline and just say that TC> I've been sitting all day long. I used to do this also but now I see that it is much better to take the seat and show the public at large that I can be as tired after a hard day on the job just like my sighted brothers. This is much easier for the public to understand if the person who is giving me the seat is an old lady who can just about stand up. tom G. Date : 27-May-91 09:37 From : Dan Kysor To : David Goldfield Subject : Re: Hot Topic whats the difference between free matter i.e., braille being too bulky and the like and reduced bus or transportation fairs. blind people don't drive (most of us) and according to the free matter logic you described, cars are inaccessable and taxi's are too expensive so it just seems logical to reduce the blind bus rates as true for senior citizens... dan Date : 27-May-91 09:55 From : Dan Kysor To : Mika Pyyhkala Subject : Hot Topic there we go again... why is it that i can always tell who is aspousing nfb docterine... that is, second guessing what the sighted are going to think... blindness is expensive. if i have to supplement my travel with taxis and instead of buying a bic pen, i have to go out and spend $450 on a brailler and then hire a reader at $5 per hour to read my mail and label my food cans, why not reduce my bus fair? well, since your second guessing what sighted folks think about this issue (who conducted the sighted survey?)i'll do the same in a positive manner. i figure the reduced bus fair is predicated on the understanding that i incurr all these expensesand thus, live in an aware, enlightened society... well, maybe i am carrying it a little far what you get my point... dan, too vain to be blind Date : 27-May-91 11:23 From : Walter Siren To : Dan Kysor Subject : Re: Hot Topic DK> well i agree with phil too but dosn't blind adaptive equipment, clothing, DK> travel expense (cars purchases etc) qualify as a tax right off? Well, you included too many things in your write offs. The only time that you can have a write off as the things you described, would be if you are business for yourself. Clothing would only apply, if you were required to wear a uniform. Travel expenses only if you go on a business trip. Travel between work and home does not count. Even guide dog expenses have to come under your medical expense allowance, and If you don't have too many medical expenses, it won't help you, since they have cut down a great deal on medical expenses. Walter Date : 27-May-91 06:33 From : Mary Otten To : David Goldfield Subject : Re: Hot Topic Hi David, and thanks for the validation. You mentioned write offs for special equipment. What write offs? Unless you use the equip for your work, so far as Iknow, no write off is possible. That is another reason why Idon't particularly mind taking the little crumbs they give, like a cheaper bus ride. Ican't write off the speech synthesizer for this computer, nor will Ibe able to write off my ocr device, when and if Iget it etc. Somebody with my income, if they weren't blind, would surely have a car and, yes, the expenses associated with it, but they'd also save a lot of time and agrivation. But I'd have to have a whole lot more income to be able to afford a driver etc, full time, Imean. I guess Ilook at it as being caught in the middle. I'm not saying society owes me this lttle break on transportation, but I'm not turning it down either. I also think that the number of services, paid for by thetax peyers, to which Idon't have access just because Iam blind, is greater than the number to which the average sighted person doesn't have access. Rationalization? Yes, maybe. But, as has been said before in other posts, society isn't perfect, isn't built on perfect reliance on unalterable principles. I do, however, think you or anybody else should have theright to go ahead and pay full fair if your conscience demands it and not be hastled by anybody. Date : 27-May-91 20:13 From : Beth Hatch-alleyne To : Tim Cumings Subject : Re: Hot Topic Tim; I agree. Depending on what the situation, however, I just decline politely. It is not necessary to explain why most of the time, Beth. --- Date : 27-May-91 13:58 From : Jake Daniel To : Mika Pyyhkala Subject : Re: Hot Topic Hi Mika, After reading your comments on free transportation for the blind and then reading the reply you received from Dan Kysor, I am forced to agree with Dan. He's absolutely correct when he states, infact itemizes, that many things wich cost the average sighted person only cents costs us so much more. The brailler verses the ball point pin is a perfect example. There are so many more. Another that pops to mind as I sit here typing away on this machine is all the extras I had to buy just to get into the world of computers. Infact, this whole issue brings to mind the thought that for so many years blind activists fought for just such considerations as extra tax exemptions and reduced public transportation fees. It seems a shame for this new radical view of blind independence should be deystroying so many hard won victories. Don't get me wrong. I'm as independent as I can be, I think. But there are limits to the amount of confusion we can force upon the sighted and still retain their respect. In other words, 1 blind person says 1 thing 1 day and another blind person says a completely different thing about his/her independence the next day. No wonder some sighted individuals don't know how to act around blind persons. It's to bad there's not an organization that really does give a true a-cross-the-board representation of the blind community as a whole. Please don't even try to say that the organization I invision is N.F.B. I can only sum up my feelings about N.F.B. in 2 words, "IT SUCKS!" Oh well, I call'em as I don't see'm! Jake Date : 28-May-91 11:25 From : Walter Siren To : Dan Kysor Subject : Re: Hot Topic DK> whats the difference between free matter i.e., braille being too bulky and DK> the like and reduced bus or transportation fairs. blind people don't drive DK> (most of us) and according to the free matter logic you described, cars are DK> inaccessable and taxi's are too expensive so it just seems logical to DK> reduce the blind bus rates as true for senior citizens... dan Dan, you are right, it's that inconsistency that I can't understand, or you might call it that double standard. Walter Date : 27-May-91 09:21 From : Gary Petraccaro To : David Goldfield Subject : Re: Hot Topic David, I oppose discounts of most sorts. As for the handicapped, they just make us look more helpless than we are. Frankly favor discounts for cops, fire fighters, military. All discounting should be discretionary--not governmental in nature, and, of course, anyone should be able to not take advantage of such a policy. Date : 27-May-91 21:09 From : Gary Petraccaro To : Walter Siren Subject : Re: Hot Topic Walter, Thanks for replying to David's message. It reminded me that the discount here in Pittsburgh applied, if memory serves me right, only during off-peak hours (which means not during those times working people usually went to and from work). That was just fine with me. Date : 28-May-91 01:42 From : William Wilson To : David Goldfield Subject : Re: Hot Topic DG> money and who doesn't. Basically, senior citizens, in my DG> opinion, deserve a break because they've lived longer than me DG> and have worked and paid their dues. David, Let me make clear right from the beginning that I am leaving this message sort of tongue in cheek, and although I actually do basically mean every word, I realize on the other hand that I am a cold, unthinking, and cruel person, and therefore expect to not receive a lot of support with this one... David, I think people who have managed to reach the age of 65 should get down on their knees and thank their maker every night that he allowed them to reach such an age, as far too many people work their butts off all their life, contribute to funds supposed to take care of them once they retire or become disabled, and then, on hole 14 of their first golf game after retirement, they have a massive coronary and bite the big one! In other words, the only alternative I know to not reaching old age is croaking, so why in the heck are blind people who are too proud to accept handouts merely because they are blind willing to give everything they ask for to an elderly person??? Sure David, if the majority of elderly people I knew had, as you said, worked all their lives and were now sitting on the edge of poverty, I'd buy your logic to some degree, but that just isn't what I see in my experiences with the senior citizens of this city! In fact, let me tell you about public transportation in Pittsburgh. First of all, yes, blind people do get half fare on the busses here, but not during morning or evening rush hour, so if you're using the busses to get to work or school as a blind person, you pay the whole fare like everybody else. Oops, excuse me...like everybody else except senior citizens that is! They get on scott free, of course, cause they deserve it, right? One of my favorite bus drivers was an old codger himself, who every morning after I put my fare in the change box, would give me a disertation on how the old people of the city were dragging the country down, asking for handout after handout while I, a blind man trying hard to improve my employmentability by getting an education, had to pay full fare and the scoundrels of society danced by in their Brooks Brothers suits and their bus pass! In all honesty, I started catching an earlier bus, as his disertations were usually loud enough to be heard by the entire bus, which usually consisted of about 90% pass wielding retirees, and it was quite embarassing to me, but he had some points, ya know? Likewise, we have a paratransit system in this city that, although it is supposedly for both the elderly and the disabled, blindness alone is not enough reason to obtain the service. On the contrary, if you are over the age of 65, you can have Access, as it is called, pick you up right at your door and deliver your elderly bunns to where ever you desire! Ironically, and again, this is no bull, I know of several old people who live in the suburbs of Pittsburgh, own and drive their own cars, and yet when it is time to go somewhere like downtown where the parking is a real bear, call their local paratransit office and schedule their chauffer! Meanwhile, by the way, Access also has what is-ߗ Ra "pink" ticket in addition to those they sell to the disabled or elderly client wAZnVKi.Wce. These "pink" tickets are supposed to be used by any person the disabled or elderly person wants as an aid, but I, even though I am not "disabled" enough to obtain the service as I am just blind, am unable to use a pink ticket as an aid for another disabled person because I am blind! (Hmmm, does this sound like discrimination to anyone?) I guess I should keep my mouth shut and allow senior citizens to get their hands on everything they can, cause hey, with any luck at all, maybe I'll make it to that wonderful age of 65 and have the world by the balls! I'll be able to ride the bus for free, I'll get paratransit when I don't feel like rubbing elbows with those common people on the bus, and hey, maybe I'll even be able to use a pink ticket to act as some other old codger's aid, cause instead of being denied because I'm blind, they'll allow me to cause I'm an old codger, what do you think? Willie Date : 27-May-91 19:10 From : Jeff Salzberg To : Mika Pyyhkala Subject : Re: Hot Topic MP> For instance, if Malcolm Forbes, Bill Gates, or Donald Trump MP> became blind, should they be exempted from income tax? More importantly, if Bill Gates became blind, you can BET that all this Graphical User Interface crap would be thrown out the...er...window.