Posted by P Suster on December 28, 1996 at 01:45:57:
In Reply to: bugs and men posted by stephen snead on December 27, 1996 at 09:24:26:
: First I want to thank Jason for a very intelligent and honest response to my last post. The other day while in my bathroom I saw a very ugly sight. A waterbug. call orkin quick. Actually I smashed it. But,not untill I looked and thought about something. If the atheists were absolutley right. Then that bug had as much dignity as I do. The bug ends the same as a human.
Online Webster's defines dignity as "the quality or state of being worthy, honored, or esteemed." I don't think waterbugs are especially repulsive, and I tend to toss them out the window rather than squash em. I'll go on record as an atheist that I esteem humans over arthropods. As to ending the same, well, I think the marvel is that a human's legacy has much more potential than a waterbug.
: Now I want to be careful here because the internet is wide open and I don't want to say anything that would disturb any unstable folks. But,if I believed that there was no more to me than a bug. If I really thought that humans were simply intellegent beasts at heart. No soul. Then I would be the meanest s.o.b. on the planet. No limits. What ever I could get away with.
To use your metaphor, we are more than the other intelligent beasts because we do have this remarkable set of evolutionary memes collectively called "intelligence" and "heart." I submit that in the absence of the supernal overlord(s), the exercise of mercy, compassion, honesty and all other virtues are even more important. In living one's life to the fullest, the Hebrew maxim of "don't do to others what you don't want to have done to you" is invaluable secular wisdom. I further submit that your exercise of any ethical priniciple because of your desire to succor your fellow man in need is far more go(o)dly than your desire to please a supernatural being.
: You have absolutely no right to judge Hitler,Stalin or Manson or Dalmer.
If you and I agree it is desirable for our species to transcend what other species have accomplished, then we absolutely _do_ have the right and ethical responsibility to judge and restrain such monsters.
: Now I am not and will never be a violent person. I think the people I just named were monsters. I'm simply giving you a point that any honest atheist has to at least aknowledge.
I think your your point is that without "god" we are amoral and rapacious brutes devoid of virtue. But I think it is our cultural mores, of which religion is a subset that indoctrinates what we value and how we treat our fellow man.
:Please don't start with the glourious evelution of mankind. It does not change the banility of a souless world.
Well, I can't speak for others but my life is anything but banal. If you agree with me that thoughts and feelings are the expression of "soul" then we differ only whether it is a given that soul persists after death.
:Fundlementalism always breaks down at it's core. Reliogous or Atheistic. It just will not stand up. to a thoughtfull mind. I think that evelution (and yeah I need spell checker) should be taught as the best answer biologically for science classes. But,be careful of substituting dogma for science.
Agreed, and I shall be happy to change my mind when there is reproducible evidence for deity and its need to have its ego stroked.
:One thing I have learned in my life. Everyone has an agenda. on the new age pages you will get fluff and highminded cosmic evolved little gods. On religion you get some honest quest for understanding and some reliogous mind controll dogma.
I submit that those of us who are vilified as "skeptics" are on an honest quest as well. Like theists, we are human.
:Same for the new agers. And on these pages you get the (we are to intellegent to believe in anything but ourselves and what mr.randi and mr.gardner will pat us on the back for.
No, I think most of us have seen intelligent people taken in by various canards, and are aware of our vulnerability. Mr. Randi has long pointed out to us how easily it is to fool scientists with an arrogant mindset. That may be one reason for the extra "crust" Mrs. Gardner and Randi project.
:Well to all of you I say Your god's too small.
You've missed the point; it's non-existant.
:And finally please remember. We can caricature anyone. From Carl Sagan to Hugh Ross. But,only when we listen and search can we learn.
A sincere amen from me. I am thankful for this forum of listening, searching, and learning. Viva Carl Sagan! I shall miss his wonderfully readable blend of curiosity and compassion.
P Suster
"Ubi dubium, ibi libertas"