Re: Scripture (was: Unlikely Existence of God)

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: : : : : Getting into biblical scripture, I do have a few questions. I'm : : : : sure that you're familiar with the Mosaic Law in the OT. Here's an : : : : example: : : : : "If anyone secretly entices you-- even if it is your : : : : brother, your father's son or your mother's son, or : : : : your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or : : : : your most intimate friend-- saying, "Let us go worship : : : : other gods," .... you must not yield to or heed any : : : : such persons. Show them no pity or compassion and do : : : : not shield them. But you shall surely kill them; your : : : : own hand shall be first against them to execute them, : : : : and afterwards the hand of all the people." : : : : (Deut. 13:6,8-9) : : : : : The latter half of Deuteronomy 13:4 says, "...that man has tried to draw you aside from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So shall you put the evil away from your midst." : : : Worshipping false gods is about the worst thing you can do in God's eyes. Spiritually speaking, these false worshippers were already dead. To put them physically to death served two purposes, one was to keep the Israelites undefiled, and two was to keep those destined for punishment from stacking the charges against themselves even higher. : : With all due respect, Lynn, I find this a little disturbing. Let's provide an : : example to illustrate my point. In Iran today, people who belong to the Baha'i : : faith are being persecuted by the Muslim majority. Naturally, we would both : : find the sort of behaviour reprehensible. However, let's say an Iranian official : : responded to you this way (to paraphrase your own words): : : "Worshipping false gods is about the worst thing you can do in the eyes of Allah. : : Spiritually speaking, these Baha'i worshippers were already dead. To put them : : physically to death served two purposes, one was to keep us Muslims undefiled and : : two was to keep those destined for punishment from stacking the charges against : : themselves any higher." : : It sounds pretty brutal, doesn't it? Any religion can make a similar claim if they : : want to justify religious persecution or genocide. It still doesn't make it right. : : I find this argument disturbing because it attempts to justify cruelty and : : barbarism by trying to dehumanize the victims first. This is the same motivation : : for things like the Holocaust and the Inquisition. The perpetrators actually : : thought they were fulfilling God's will. The Israelite persecution of different : : religions is just as morally wrong as the Islamic persecution of the Bahais. : : : : Overall, an action is good or bad depending on the act itself, not on _who_ does it. : : Religious persecution and genocide is wrong. It would be wrong if you or I did it, : : and it would still be wrong if a judge, president, king, or a god did it. If it's : : not then words like "good" and "evil" become stripped of any meaning and are : : completely arbitrary. : : : Perhaps you could direct me to a copy of the Declaration of Human Rights : : A copy of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights can be found at http:// : : www.mk.net/~mcf/unrights.htm. Here's a sample of the UDHR: : : "Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience, and religion; this : : right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone : : or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion : : or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance." (Article 18, UDHR) : : A philosophy like this would go a lot further to benefit humankind than something : : like Deut. 13:6-9. Indeed, if we lived by Deut. 13:6-9, we wouldn't even be having : : this conversation. You would be forced to kill me! The OT was written during very : : barbaric and superstitious times. It is far more likely that the Mosaic Law was : : influenced by the culture rather than inpiration from an omnibenevolent deity. : : (This raised another question. Why did God limit his revelation to a particular : : tribe of desert nomads?) : : : I wonder if you, or anyone else here has ever played the game "MYST". Unlocking the Bible is a lot like it. To play the game you go in, look around, and at first glance nothing makes sense, but you keep searching, thinking, and experimenting in order to solve the mystery because you go into it knowing that the answers are there if you look hard enough. Once you discover the answer to one of the riddles it seems so simple that you can't believe you missed it in the first place. If you didn't know for sure that the creators of the game had actually made the puzzle solvable, you might be inclined to give up, and quick! The Bible is a mystery also, and I suppose it takes a certain amount of faith just to look for the meaning and truth of it because you have to believe that it is a solvable puzzle before your start. I hope this analogy makes sense. I'm having trouble putting it into words, although I understand it completely in my head. : : No, I never played that game. I understand your analogy, but you'll have to show : : me specific examples. I noticed you qualified your remarks by saying that we have : : to believe it's a solvable puzzle before we start. This is not an objective but a : : very subjective analytical approach. Should I use this same approach with the Vedas, : : the Qur'an, or the Book of Mormon. Any devout believer of a particular religion : : can say that "everything comes together" in their holy books. : : - Jason : : The Jews were NOT practicing genocide. People throw that word around too loosely. These commands pertained to people living within the Israelite community who were guilty of trying to entice others to worship false gods...

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