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$Unique_ID{bob01191} $Pretitle{} $Title{Nixon Tapes, The April 14, 1973. (8:55am - 11:31am) - Part 1/2} $Subtitle{} $Author{Various} $Affiliation{} $Subject{nixon pres ehrlichman haldeman hr unintelligible mitchell right say colson} $Date{1974} $Log{} Title: Nixon Tapes, The Author: Various Date: 1974 April 14, 1973. (8:55am - 11:31am) - Part 1/2 Meeting: President Nixon, HR Haldeman and John Ehrlichman; EOB Office -------------------------- Material unrelated to Presidential actions deleted -------------------------- Pres. Nixon: Did you reach any conclusions as to where we are. J. Ehrlichman: No conclusions. Dick Wilson, I think, has an interesting column this morning (unintelligible) It's all a money problem. unintelligible) It's all a money problem. (Unintelligible) Well, yes - Pres. Nixon: Wilson's in the Star. J. Ehrlichman: (Unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: So what -? HR Haldeman: (Unintelligible) is really the essence of this whole thing is too much money. Too much was spent. And so I - Pres. Nixon: Yeah. My point, everybody - HR Haldeman: No not everybody. Let's say, one group, pieces that (unintelligible) has on that side and more like (unintelligible) say that his, you know, solving Watergate doesn't take care of It. Pres. Nixon: Lots of people, I think want the President to speak out on the whole general issue of money and campaign and all that. J. Ehrlichman: Generally, but he gets specific on this. He says also (unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: Is that what you think, go out and make a speech? J. Ehrlichman: I'll tell you what I think. I think that the President's personal involvement in this is important. And I know - Pres. Nixon: I don't think it's a speech. Well, that's a point. I think there are other ways you can get at it. Now I was thinking of the - before we get into that though let's get back. I'd like to go in, if I could, to what your conversation with Colson was and in essence, what did he and the lawyer tell you about? J. Ehrlichman: That visit was to tell me that Hunt was going to testify on Monday afternoon. Pres. Nixon: How does he know that? How does be get such information? J. Ehrlichman: Undoubtedly through Bittman, Pres. Nixon: Right. J. Ehrlichman: or Bittman to Shapiro Pres. Nixon: Now why is Hunt testifying? Did be say? J. Ehrlichman: He said, I'll tell you what he said and then I'll tell you what I think the fact is. He said Hunt was testifying because there was no longer any point in being silent. That so many other people were testifying, that there was no - he wasn't really keeping any (unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: Yeah. J. Ehrlichman: It wouldn't add much. My feeling is that Bittman got very antsy. Pres. Nixon: Why? J. Ehrlichman: This grand jury started focusing on the aftermath and he might be involved. HR Haldeman: Exactly. Pres. Nixon: What did he say? J. Ehrlichman: He went to the U. S. Attorney and he said, "Maybe I can persuade my client to talk. Pres. Nixon: What do Colson et al, Colson and Shapiro, think we ought to do under these circumstances? Get busy and nail Mitchell in a hurry? J. Ehrlichman: Yes Pres. Nixon: How is that going to help? J. Ehrlichman: Well, they feel that after he testifies that the whole thing is going to fall in in short order. Pres. Nixon: Right. J. Ehrlichman: Mitchell and Magruder will involuntarily be indicted. Both will say you have lost any possibility of initiative for participation in the process. Pres. Nixon: What does Colson want us to do? J. Ehrlichman: He wants you to do several things. He want you to persuade Liddy to talk. Pres. Nixon: Me? J. Ehrlichman: Yes, sir. That's his - I didn't bring my notes, but, basically Pres. Nixon: Oh. Last night you didn't mention that. J. Ehrlichman: I thought I had. Pres. Nixon: Maybe you did, maybe you did. I would need to let - bring Liddy in and tell him to talk? J. Ehrlichman: You can't bring him in. He's in jail. Pres. Nixon: Oh. J. Ehrlichman: You would send, you send word to him, of course through a spokesman or in some way you would be activist on this score. HR Haldeman: There's no, that doesn't involve any real problem. As Dean points out, he is not talking 'cause he thinks be supposed not to talk. If he is supposed to talk, he will. All he needs is a signal, if you want to turn Liddy on. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. But the point - that Colson wants to call the signals. Is that right? J. Ehrlichman: He wants you to be able to say afterward that you cracked the case. Pres. Nixon: Go ahead. What else? J. Ehrlichman: Well I forget what else. You remember, Bob, when I was busy (unintelligible). He feels that the next forty-eight hours are the last chance for the White House to get out in front of this and that once Hunt goes on, that's the ball game. Pres. Nixon: But you've got to be out in front earlier? J. Ehrlichman: Well, - Pres. Nixon: But, I mean to go public - J. Ehrlichman: Either publicly, or with provable, identifiable steps which can be referred to later as having been the proximate cause. Pres. Nixon: He's not talking because he thinks the President doesn't want him to talk? Is that the point? J. Ehrlichman: He's - according to them, Mitchell's given him a promise of a pardon. Pres. Nixon: Bittman? J. Ehrlichman: According to Colson and Shapiro. Pres. Nixon: I don't know where they get that. Mitchell has promised Liddy a pardon? J. Ehrlichman: Yes, sir. Pres. Nixon: Another point that Colson may not have mentioned, I have an uneasy feeling that that Magruder story may have been planted. HR Haldeman: No. Pres. Nixon: Is it true? HR Haldeman: There is a third Magruder phone call which I have heard that says - Pres. Nixon: That he did talk to the reporter? HR Haldeman: Says he did talk to a reporter on Monday, and did not say any of the things he is reported to have said; that what he, that it wasn't an important conversation. He said he gave the reporter the same line. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. HR Haldeman: That you know. In listening to Magruder's thing, I was convinced he wasn't completely telling the truth (unintelligible) what he was saying. As you get into it, I'm convinced that its, (unintelligible) that part was pretty much (unintelligible). However - Pres. Nixon: Yeah. But you come - all these people you put to - or now. But if you come to Magruder, where in the hell does Colson get such a thing? Or is Colson a liar or - J. Ehrlichman: Shapiro says he has a very good press contact who has proved very reliable to him. He says his practice in this town depends on his knowing what is going on. And be's told his press contact, This is one of the Pres. Nixon: Has says he's talked to Magruder. Magruder said - J. Ehrlichman: And they've now told us - we'll never get the chance - (unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: Does Magruder know about - J. Ehrlichman: Magruder may have talked to some of the press and that that was (unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: But in a great detail, Colson (unintelligible) that he nailed Bob Haldeman. The way Colson said, he said he had Colson and two, but not any way that's particularity bad. Right? J. Ehrlichman: Well I think, I think like on so many things this got, this got planted as a little seed by Shapiro with Colson and that it grew and apparently Pres. Nixon: Uh, uh. HR Haldeman: I would guess what's happened is he's got this report from, Colson does, from Danny Hofgren that at the bar in the Bahamas with (unintelligible), someone (unintelligible) one night said to Hofgren everybody was involved in this. He didn't - J. Ehrlichman: Everybody knew about it? HR Haldeman: Mitchell, Haldeman, Colson, Dean, the President Pres. Nixon: Magruder J. Ehrlichman: He said, he specifically said the President. Pres. Nixon: Magruder does believe that, does he? HR Haldeman: No. I've got it - Pres. Nixon: I just wonder if he believes (unintelligible). Does he believe it, John? J. Ehrlichman: No. He tape recorded this thing. Higby handled it so well that Magruder has closed all his doors now with this tape. Pres. Nixon: What good will that do John? J. Ehrlichman: Sir, it beats the socks off him if he ever gets off the reservation. Pres. Nixon: Can you use the tape? J. Ehrlichman: Well no. You can use Higby. Pres. Nixon: Why not J. Ehrlichman: Well, it's illegal. HR Haldeman: No, it's not. It is not. Pres. Nixon: Don't you have to tell somebody J. Ehrlichman: Put a beeper HR Haldeman: There is no beeper required. Check the Washington law. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. HR Haldeman: District of Columbia is under federal law and the federal law does not require disclosure to the other party of the recording of phone conversations. The phone call was made to Magruder's lawyer's office which is also in the District of Columbia so both ends of the conversation were in the District of Columbia and there is no law requiring disclosure. J. Ehrlichman: (Unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: Well, anyway - HR Haldeman: It cannot be admissible, but it's legal. Pres. Nixon: That's interesting. That's a new one. (Unintelligible) now and then, any way. I never heard anybody beep and I know that - HR Haldeman: No. It all depends on where you are. The basic law in most states is that you must disclose to the other party that you're recording the conversation. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. What is the situation - I'll get past this in a hurry. What is the situation, John, in your opinion on what was Colson's and/or Shapiro's motive in building up Magruder story? Maybe they believe it? J. Ehrlichman: Their innuendo is that Mitchell has put Magruder up to this. Pres. Nixon: I guess not. OK. There is the motive. Now, let me come to something else. HR Haldeman: I don't believe that Magruder's - Pres. Nixon: I don't either. Not at all. I believe Mitchell has tried to. Pres. Nixon: Huh? HR Haldeman: I believe Mitchell tried to. To keep Magruder's faith because he refers to Mitchell and says now that I have decided to talk I am going to have to tell Mr. Mitchell and he's going to be very unhappy with me because he's told me not to. J. Ehrlichman: (Unintelligible) Magruder's an emotional fellow ready to crack. I have no doubt that he's ready to talk. Pres. Nixon: What is it? He hasn't been subpoenaed, has he? J. Ehrlichman: Well, he won't be. But he's already been there. Pres. Nixon: But they won't give him a chance to J. Ehrlichman: He doesn't think they'll give him a chance to go back unless he comes running at them and strokes them. HR Haldeman: Let's say they don't call the suspects and and (b) they don't recall perjured witnesses. Pres. Nixon: What would you do if you were his lawyer? Wouldn't you advise him to go in and try and purge himself? At least gets rid of one charge, doesn't he? J. Ehrlichman: I'm not sure he's rid of it, but it certainly reduces it when he comes in voluntarily. Pres. Nixon: The way I understand it under the law, John, if he were to under the - J. Ehrlichman: Well, you don't - you see there's contrary evidence already here - Pres. Nixon: I see. J. Ehrlichman: In other words, - Pres. Nixon: Strachan - Strachan got in before there was contrary evidence. J. Ehrlichman: Exactly. Exactly Pres. Nixon: John, J. Haldeman: I want to talk to Magruder. J. Ehrlichman: And you take the circumstances, now Pres. Nixon: They better have - J. Ehrlichman: If it's known, if it's known, for instance, that Hunt is going to come in and testify then Magruder comes rushing in and says I want to tell all, it's, you know, Pres. Nixon: Magruder's got no hope now? J. Ehrlichman: Yeah, but I think he could improve it. I think he really could help and purge himself. Pres. Nixon: Turn Bob on him. I come to the other things that you talked to Colson about. I was going to talk - what is Hunt going to say? Do we have any idea? J. Ehrlichman: Yes - Pres. Nixon: He says, for example, will he say that Colson promised him clemency? J. Ehrlichman: No. Apparently not. Pres. Nixon: You see the only possible involvement of the President in this is that, now apparently John, either you or Bob or Dean, somebody told me they said, told Colson not to discuss it with me. J. Ehrlichman: I did. Pres. Nixon: You did? How did it get to you then John? How did you know that the matter had to be discussed with Bittman or something like that? J. Ehrlichman: Well, I - Pres. Nixon: When did this happen? As I remember a conversation this day was about five thirty or six o'clock that Colson only dropped it in sort of parenthetically, said I had a little problem today, talking about Hunt, and said I sought to reassure him, you know, and so forth. And I said, well. Told me about Hunt's wife. I said it was a terrible thing and I said obviously we will do just, we will take that into consideration. That was the total of the conversation. J. Ehrlichman: Well, I had, we had had a couple of conversations in my office - Pres. Nixon: With Colson? J. Ehrlichman: I had with Colson. Yeah. Pres. Nixon: Well how was, who was getting, was Bittman getting to Colson? Was that the point? J. Ehrlichman: Hunt had written to Colson Pres. Nixon: Oh? J. Ehrlichman: Hunt wrote Colson a very, I think a I've been abandoned kind of letter. Pres. Nixon: When was this, John? J. Ehrlichman: I am sorry - Pres. Nixon: After the election? J. Ehrlichman: Oh yes. Yeah. Pres. Nixon: Oh. And Colson, you knew about this letter? J. Ehrlichman: Colson came in to tell me about it. And he said, "What shall I do?" And I said, "Well, better talk to him." I thought somebody had better talk to him, the guy is obviously very distraught. Pres. Nixon: Right. J. Ehrlichman: And has a feeling abandoned. Pres. Nixon: Right. J. Ehrlichman: And he said, "What can I tell him about clemency or pardon." And I said, "You can't tell him anything about clemency or pardon." And I said, "Under no circumstances should this ever be raised with the President." Pres. Nixon: (Unintelligible). Well, he raised it, I must say, in a tangential way. Now he denies that, as I understand it, that he said they'd be out by Christmas. He says - J. Ehrlichman: I've never talked to Chuck about that, have you? Pres. Nixon: What did he say he said? Well, I'll tell you what I, what Dean, or somebody, tells me he said he said. He said that he didn't. He just talked or saw Bittman casually - were off on (unintelligible) or something of that sort. J. Ehrlichman: Bittman? Pres. Nixon: That was it. J. Ehrlichman: Oh. Pres. Nixon: And he said to Bittman, he said, "I - J. Ehrlichman: Well, now, that - Pres. Nixon: He said, "I, I had given," he said, "I know about Hunt's concern about clemency. I, Chuck Colson feel terrible about it, 'cause I knew his wife." And he said, "I will go to bat for him and I have reason to believe that my views would be listened to." Well its the last part that might in any way remain, although - J. Ehrlichman: He says he talked with Bittman, that he was very skillful in avoiding any commitment. He says that Bittman was pitching him, but that he wasn't catching 'em. And he might have a tape of that meeting or a tape of the conversation or some such thing. HR Haldeman: That's where he lost his thread, then. He said you and Dean told him to promise clemency, but that he was smarter than you and didn't. Pres. Nixon: He doesn't say you and Dean promised? HR Haldeman: That Ehrlichman and Dean told him to promise Bittman. Pres. Nixon: Well, anyway. I better change my (unintelligible). Let me ask the question. HR Haldeman: This is a little strange. Pres. Nixon: Well, just so you - let's see, does he indicate that Hunt's going to talk to that subject, for example? The promise of clemency? J. Ehrlichman: He didn't say that. He didn't say that. I didn't ask him. HR Haldeman: Well we've got to go on the basis, John - as I re call, they don't have anything to indicate - we don't know how they know what Hunt's ding to testify. We assume that Bittman told them. J. Ehrlichman: Right. HR Haldeman: We don't, they don't have any indication based on their knowledge that Hunt's going to testify, of what Hunt is going to testify to, except on the basis of Shapiro's meeting with Hunt - J. Ehrlichman: The other day. HR Haldeman: The other day. And that is assuming what Hunt told Shapiro is what he will tell the Grand Jury, but I don't know why they'd have any reason to assume that. J. Ehrlichman: Shapiro's general comment was that Hunt would corroborate a lot of McCord's hearsay. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. J. Ehrlichman: But that it also would be hearsay. Pres. Nixon: All right. Hunt, however, and this is where Colson comes in right? Hard. Hunt could testify on Colson's (unintelligible). HR Haldeman: Yeah - but what they said he said, Pres. Nixon: Has it - HR Haldeman: On the coverup, what he said. Pres. Nixon: Now wait a minute. I'm talking about something else. We're talking about when he and Liddy are in the office with Colson. Colson picked up the phone and calls Magruder. All right? HR Haldeman: Sure. Pres. Nixon: Now, Colson says that they didn't discuss the (unintelligible) then. But Hunt could say, I went in and I showed this whole thing to Colson and Colson told me - picked up the phone and talked to Magruder. Does Colson realize his vulnerability there? J. Ehrlichman: Well, Colson claims he has no vulnerability, because when Hunt and Liddy came in to talk to him they talked in very general terms. Pres. Nixon: I understand that. J. Ehrlichman: So, he doesn't acknowledge that there's any possibility. Pres. Nixon: I understand that, but I am just simply saying, J. Ehrlichman: I think you're right. Pres. Nixon: That Hunt and Liddy could assert, could charge that - that's the point. If they talk, I would assume they would get into that point with them, any cross-examiner. J. Ehrlichman: I've asked Colson specifically about that conversation and he maintains that they were talking in general terms about intelligence and when they said intelligence he meant one thing and apparently they meant another. Pres. Nixon: Question, for example, is Hunt prepared to talk on other activities that he engaged in? J. Ehrlichman: Well, I think, I couldn't derive that. Pres. Nixon: You mean is he going to blow the White House on the J. Ehrlichman: I couldn't get that at all. Pres. Nixon: The U.S. Attorney, I would assume, would not be pressing on that. J. Ehrlichman: Ordinarily not. McCord volunteered this Hank Greenspun thing, gratuitously apparently, not - Pres. Nixon: Can you tell me is that a serious thing? Did they really try to get into Hank Greenspun? J. Ehrlichman: I guess they actually got in. Pres. Nixon: What in the name of (expletive deleted) though, has Hank Greenspun got with anything to do with Mitchell or anybody else? J. Ehrlichman: Nothing. Well, now, Mitchell. Here's - Hughes. And these two fellows, Colson and Shapiro, Colson threw that out. Pres. Nixon: Hughes on whom? J. Ehrlichman: Well, you know the Hughes thing is cut into two factions - I don't even know - but they're fighting. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. J. Ehrlichman: Bennett, Senator Bennett's son, for whom Hunt worked, Pres. Nixon: Oh? J. Ehrlichman: Represents one of those factions. Pres. Nixon: So he ordered the bugging? J. Ehrlichman: I don't know. I know the (unintelligible) say it's a bag job. HR Haldeman: They busted his safe to get something out of it. Wasn't that it? J. Ehrlichman: No. They flew out, broke his safe, got something out (unintelligible). Now as they sat there in my office Pres. Nixon: Other delicate things, too. You've got apart from my from my poor brother, which unfortunately or fortunately was a long time ago but, more recently, you've got Hubert Humphrey's son works for him and, of course, they're tied in with O'Brien I suppose. But maybe they were trying to get it for that reason. J. Ehrlichman: I don't know why. The two of them put on a little charade for me in the office. Pres. Nixon: Shapiro and Colson? J. Ehrlichman: Yes, we talked about this and it may have been genuine and it may not. Pres. Nixon: But they didn't know anything about it? J. Ehrlichman: No. They said, one said to the other, "Say, that may have something to do with the New York Grand Jury," meaning the Vesco Grand Jury which is a runaway and which is into Pres. Nixon: You think Colson knew about that? J. Ehrlichman: I don't know. I don't say he knew about it. I said, he says he doesn't know even who Hank Greenspun is. Pres. Nixon: (Unintelligible) J. Ehrlichman: I'll take him at face value on that one. Pres. Nixon: You didn't know that either? J. Ehrlichman: I know very well who he is. Pres. Nixon: All right. Let me just take a minute further and run out the Hunt thing, and then the Grand Jury, I want to get all the pieces in my mind if I can. J. Ehrlichman: Sure. Pres. Nixon: Hunt's testimony on pay-off, of course, would be very important. J. Ehrlichman: Right. Pres. Nixon: Is he prepared to testify on that? J. Ehrlichman: Apparently so, that's what they say, that he will, and that he will implicate O'Brien and Parkinson. And then, of course, - Pres. Nixon: O'Brien and Parkinson? J. Ehrlichman: The lawyers. Pres. Nixon: Were they the ones that talked to Hunt? J. Ehrlichman: Well, he says they were and that they handed him the money. He in turn handed it to his wife and she was the go-between for the Cubans. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. For what purpose? J. Ehrlichman: Well, I think he'll hang 'em up on obstruction of justice. Pres. Nixon: Can Hunt do that? HR Haldeman: How can he do that? Why would he simply - why doesn't he accomplish his purpose simply by saying they gave them money to handle their legal fees? J. Ehrlichman: Well, (unintelligible) out there apparently. Pres. Nixon: Now this - I don't think you - this is what Colson tells you guys? HR Haldeman: Right. J. Ehrlichman: I don't have any other information on this. Pres. Nixon: Hunt then is going to go. Now that raises the problem on Hunt with regard to Kalmbach. He has possible vulnerability as to whether he was aware, in other words, the motive, the motive, - J. Ehrlichman: This doesn't add anything to do with Kalmbach's problem at all. Pres. Nixon: What happened on that? Dean called Kalmbach? And what did Dean call Kalmbach about? J. Ehrlichman: He said we have to raise some money in connection with the aftermath, and I don't know how he described it. Herb said how much do you need, and Pres. Nixon: It was never discussed then? J. Ehrlichman: Presumably Dean told him, and Herb went to a couple of donors and got some money and sent it back. HR Haldeman: Dean says very flatly that Kalmbach did not know the purpose of the money and has no problem. Pres. Nixon: Dean did know the purpose? Hunt testifies - so basically then Hunt will testify that it was so-called hush money. Right? J. Ehrlichman: I think so. Now again, my water can't rise any hiker than source. Pres. Nixon: I understand. J. Ehrlichman: But that's what - Pres. Nixon: Where does that serve him, let me ask? HR Haldeman: John, - Would it serve him? J. Ehrlichman: The only thing it serves him is to Pres. Nixon: Would it reduce his sentence? J. Ehrlichman: Have his sentence reduced. HR Haldeman: He'd be served the same purpose by not saying it was hush money, by saying it gave it to these guys I had recruited for this job and I Pres. Nixon: I know. J. Ehrlichman: I agree. HR Haldeman: - was concerned about their family - Pres. Nixon: That's right, that's what it ought to be and that's got to be the story that HR Haldeman: Unintelligible. Pres. Nixon: Will be the defense of these people, right? J. Ehrlichman: Only defense they have, (unintelligible) and so forth. HR Haldeman: That was the line they used around here. Pres. Nixon: What? HR Haldeman: That was the line they used around here. That we've got to have money for their legal fees and family. Pres. Nixon: Support. Well, I heard something about that at a much later time. HR Haldeman: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: And, frankly, not knowing much about obstruction of justice, I thought it was perfectly proper. J. Ehrlichman: Well, it's like Pres. Nixon: Would it be perfectly proper? J. Ehrlichman: The defense of the - Pres. Nixon: Berrigans? J. Ehrlichman: The Chicago Seven. Pres. Nixon: The Chicago Seven? HR Haldeman: The have a defense fund for everybody. Pres. Nixon: Not only a defense fund they take care of the living expenses, too . . . Despite all this about legal fees, they take care of themselves. They raise - you remember the Scottsboro case? The Communist front raised a million dollars for the Scottsboro people. Nine hundred thousand went into the pockets of the Communists. So it's common practice. J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: Nevertheless, that Hunt then saying there was a payoff. All right. Hunt, on other activities - Hunt then according to Colson was not - I don't know what Colson meant about the door of the Oval Office. J. Ehrlichman: I'll have to get back on that. Shapiro was there and I didn't want to get into it. Pres. Nixon: Right. HR Haldeman: (Unintelligible). Pres. Nixon: No, not. It was an earlier conversation about the Magruder conversation when Colson - I think the Magruder conversation from what I have seen related - HR Haldeman: Magruder doesn't go to the door of the Oval Office. He doesn't even come to visit me in the White House. Pres. Nixon: I know. But he - it is Colson's vied that Magruder's talking would have the effect of bringing it there because of the - I think what he is really referring to, John, is that by reason of Colson, by reason of Magruder nailing Haldeman and Colson, that that's the door of the Oval Office. I don't know what else because there's nobody else around, nobody physically around. HR Haldeman: Magruder isn't going to nail Haldeman and Colson. Pres. Nixon: Well, let's see. I don't think so either but. HR Haldeman: (Unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: Well that, that tape is invaluable, is it not? J. Ehrlichman: Then I would suggest, Bob, that you keep it. HR Haldeman: And I'd disregard (unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: Let me just say a couple of things that we have to get there. HR Haldeman: When we come to that, he'd say. Pres. Nixon: With regard to your, regard to your views, and so forth, John, now I was told the other day, last night, John, you and Bob or somebody - I guess you and I were talking about somebody going to see Mitchell. You suggested Rogers. Got any other better names? J. Ehrlichman: Well, I've been up and down the list. Pres. Nixon: Why did you suggest Rogers? J. Ehrlichman: Well, I suggested Rogers because Pres. Nixon: First let me tell you - the purpose of the mission and tell me what it is. J. Ehrlichman: The purpose of the mission is to go up and bring him to a focus on this: The jig is up. And the President strongly feels that the only way that this thing can end up being even a little net plus for the Administration and for the Presidency and preserve some thread is for you to go in and voluntarily make a statement. Pres. Nixon: A statement (unintelligible) J. Ehrlichman: A statement that basically says J. Haldeman: He's got to go beyond that. J. Ehrlichman: "I am both morally and legally responsible." Pres. Nixon: Yeah. J. Ehrlichman: Now, the reason for Rogers is that he is clean, number one. He has been both Attorney General and has this other investigatory and Senatorial background. And there isn't anybody that Mitchell trusts, except Haldeman. Pres. Nixon: He hates Rogers. J. Ehrlichman: I understand. HR Haldeman: Doesn't trust Rogers but he would know if Rogers came that it was you. J. Ehrlichman: Now, the only other alternative, going up and down the list. HR Haldeman: From a public viewpoint Rogers is the dean of the Cabinet and is the logical man as an attorney, and former Attorney General. Pres. Nixon: From a public viewpoint, that may be but also J. Ehrlichman: Take the reasons not to do this - Pres. Nixon: You thought of those? J. Ehrlichman: Oh, yeah. Yeah. There have consistently been - you go back to the history of this - Pres. Nixon: I know, now is the time to do something. I agree with you. J. Ehrlichman: Now is the only time, probably, and I am persuaded by that argument. Pres. Nixon: Oh, I am too. I am not arguing about not doing it. I am just saying, what about the names? J. Ehrlichman: OK. In going down the list, John Alexander is the only other one that I have come to that in any way could bridge it. Garment can't do it. Pres. Nixon: Let me give you another name. Pres. Nixon: Ken Rush. He is a fine lawyer, utterly clean. A longtime friend of Mitchell. Not a close friend, but he's known him, you know, in New York and that group, up there you know, they sort of ran together. Rush would understand it all. Mitchell does not hate him. J. Ehrlichman: I just don't know how able Rush is. You've got - I just don't know. Another name, there are two other names that have occurred to me that I'll throw out. One's Elliot Richardson and the other is Kleindienst. There is another possibility and that's Henry Petersen. That, of course, well, HR Haldeman: But he's in the prosecutorial end. Pres. Nixon: That's right. And so is Kleindienst. J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: Kleindienst revealing to Mitchell that he had contact with the Grand Jury and all of that is wrong. J. Ehrlichman: I must say I am impressed with the argument that the President should be personally involved in it at this stage. Pres. Nixon: Right. I agree. J. Ehrlichman: Old John Dean had an interesting - got a phone call from him about twelve-thirty, Pres. Nixon: And you were here? J. Ehrlichman: Oh, no. I was working on something I'll tell you about here. Pres. Nixon: What did you do? J. Ehrlichman: Well, not much last night. Pres. Nixon: You mean another subject? J. Ehrlichman: Oh, no. HR Haldeman: There is no other subject! J. Ehrlichman: No. I'll tell you. Last night I got home I decided that I would sit down and try to put on paper a report to you what I have been doing since you asked me to get into this. Pres. Nixon: Right. J. Ehrlichman: I am concerned about the overall aspect of this and I want to talk about that before - I don't know what your timing is like. Pres. Nixon: No problem. J. Ehrlichman: We'll probably get back to it. Pres. Nixon: Got plenty of time. J. Ehrlichman: But Dean called and he said, "All right, here's a scenario which we've all been trying to figure out to make this go." He says, "The President calls Mitchell into his office on Saturday. He says, "John, you've got to do this. And here are the facts: bing, bing, bing, bing." And you pull this paper out here. "And you've got to do this." And Mitchell stonewalls you. So then, John says, "I don't know why you're asking me down here. You can't ask a man to do a thing like that. I need a lawyer. I don't know what I am facing - you just really can't expect me to do this." So the President says, "Well, John, I have no alternative." And with that the President calls the U.S. Attorney and says, "I, the President of the United States of America and leader of the free world want to go before the Grand Jury on Monday." Pres. Nixon: I won't even comment on that. HR Haldeman: That's a silly - Pres. Nixon: Typical of the thinking of - J. Ehrlichman: We're running out every line. So that was 12:30 this morning. I, but I - Pres. Nixon: I go before the Grand Jury. That's like putting Bob on national television, - HR Haldeman: With Dan Rather. Pres. Nixon: What? HR Haldeman: With Dan Rather. Pres. Nixon: Well by putting it on national television, period. (unintelligible) J. Ehrlichman: Let's take it just as far as you call Mitchell to the oval office as, a Pres. Nixon: No. J. Ehrlichman: I'm essentially convinced that Mitchell will understand this thing. Pres. Nixon: Right. J. Ehrlichman: And that if he goes in it redounds to the Administration's advantage. If he doesn't then we're Pres. Nixon: How does it rebound to our advantage? J. Ehrlichman: That you have a report from me based on three weeks' work; that when you got it, you immediately acted to call Mitchell in as the provable wrong-doer, and you say, "My God, I've got a report here. And it's clear from this report that you are guilty as hell. Now, John, for (expletive deleted) sake go on in there and do what you should. And let's get this thing cleared up and get it off the country's back and move on." And - HR Haldeman: Plus the other side of this is that that's the only way to beat it now. Pres. Nixon: Well, - HR Haldeman: From John Mitchell's personal viewpoint that's the only salvation for John Mitchell. I see no other way. And, obviously, once you've had it, you've got to admit - Pres. Nixon: How can he make it, anyway. HR Haldeman: Another factor, in that, to consider, for what it's worth, is the point Connally made to me in that conversation we had. Pres. Nixon: I ought to talk to Mitchell? HR Haldeman: I don't know whether he said that to you or not. He made the point that you had to get this laid out and that the only way it could hurt you is if it ultimately went to Mitchell. And that that would be the one man you couldn't afford to let get hung on this. Pres. Nixon: Even worse than (unintelligible) thought. HR Haldeman: He thought so. Pres. Nixon: That's true. Yeah. HR Haldeman: It seemed to me, because he's the epitome of your hard-line. Pres. Nixon: I think he's wrong about that. I think this is the worst one, well, due to the closeness to the President at the time of the crime. Would you agree, John? J. Ehrlichman: (unintelligible) the HR Haldeman: But, what Connally also said was unless it's the President himself who nails him. Then the President is (unintelligible) J. Ehrlichman: Can I put in a larger picture on this? We kind of live day to day for these things, and forget Pres. Nixon: Yeah. J. Ehrlichman: the perspective then will be put on this period HR Haldeman: Yeah. J. Ehrlichman: three months later. Pres. Nixon: The point is whether or not, I think I've got the larger picture, alright, and I mean, in this regard, the point is this that we need some action before, in other words, is like my feeling about having the Grand Jury do it and the court system do it rather than Ervin Committee. Now we want the President to do it rather than the Grand Jury. J. Ehrlichman: No. Pres. Nixon: And I agree with that. J. Ehrlichman: Well, you're doing it in aid of the Grand Jury. Pres. Nixon: No. I didn't mean rather than the Grand Jury but I mean to worm the truth, now look, the Grand Jury doesn't drag him in, he goes in as a result of the President's asking him to go in. HR Haldeman: Ok - but while you're on that point could I argue a contrary view for a minute? Because I don't agree with that. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. HR Haldeman: I strongly feel, thinking it through, with all the stuff we talked about last night, that we don't want the President in it, and that the solution here, if we can find it - maybe it's impossible Pres. Nixon: Is for (unintelligible) to come voluntarily? HR Haldeman: Well, or for Magruder to come voluntarily and nail it. But if the solution is - I agree with some Pres. Nixon: Where does Magruder come to? To me? HR Haldeman: No. The U.S. Attorney. Pres. Nixon: Why does, what if I urged Magruder to - I mean, let me look at this. The urging of Liddy to testify, the urging of Magruder to testify and Mitchell. John run those by. I didn't mean to to stop your analysis but I think I know what you're - isn't that really the essence of it? J. Ehrlichman: I'm trying to write the news magazine story for next Monday. Pres. Nixon: Right. J. Ehrlichman: Monday week. And if it is that "Grand Jury indicts Mitchell." Pres. Nixon: Right. J. Ehrlichman: "The White House may have its cover up finally collapse last week when the Grand Jury indicted John Mitchell and Jeb Magruder" Pres. Nixon: Right. J. Ehrlichman: "Cracking the case was the testimony of a number of peripheral witnesses who, each of whom contributed to developing a cross triangulation and permitted the Grand Jury to analyze it" and so on and so forth. The final straw that broke the camel's back was the investigators discovery of this and that and the other thing." That's one set of facts. And then the tag on that, is "White House Press Secretary Ron Ziegler said that the White House would have no comment." Pres. Nixon: I know. I know. It can't be done. J. Ehrlichman: The other one goes: "Events moved swiftly last week, after the President was presented with a report indicating for the first time that suspicion of John Mitchell and Jeb Magruder as ringleaders in the Watergate break-in were facts substantiated by considerable evidence. The President then dispatched so and so to do this and that and maybe to see Mitchell or something of that kind and these efforts resulted in Mitchell going to the U.S. Attorney's office on Monday morning at nine o'clock, asking to testify before the Grand Jury. Charges of cover-up by the White House were materially dispelled by the diligent efforts of the President and his aides in moving on evidence which came to their hands in the closing days of the previous week." Pres. Nixon: I'd buy that. J. Ehrlichman: OK. Pres. Nixon: You won't, so get down to the tactics? J. Ehrlichman: Now, I've been concerned because since the end of March, I have turned up a fair amount of hearsay evidence that points at this (unintelligible). Now just take Pres. Nixon: So did Dean. J. Ehrlichman: So did John. Pres. Nixon: So did Dean. J. Ehrlichman: Now taking this Pres. Nixon: Yet he tried, very honestly, he tried to look it at the best way he could. Maybe he could and maybe he really didn't know. J. Ehrlichman: Well, its hearsay. And so, you don't hang a guy, you don't hang a guy - Pres. Nixon: And, also, we are going to remember Mitchell has denied It. J. Ehrlichman: But I sit over there in Bob's office and listen to that tape of one of the co-actors saying flat out on the tape that he was guilty and that Mitchell was (unintelligible) going to force our fall, and - Pres. Nixon: Did he say that? Did he say that? J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: Well, we can't - J. Ehrlichman: And I said to myself, "My God. You know, I'm a United States citizen. I'm standing here listening to this, what is my duty?" Pres. Nixon: Well the point is you've now told me. That's the problem. J. Ehrlichman: That's correct. That's correct. Pres. Nixon: See the difference is that the problem of my position up to this time has been quite frankly, nobody ever told me a damn bit of this, that Mitchell was guilty. J. Ehrlichman: That's right. HR Haldeman: Well we still don't know. I will still argue that I think the scenario that was spun out, that Dean spun out on Mitchell is basically the right one. I don't think Mitchell did order the Watergate bugging and I don't think he was specifically aware of the Watergate bugging at the time it was instituted. I honestly don't. J. Ehrlichman: That may be. -------------------------- Material unrelated to Presidential actions deleted -------------------------- Pres. Nixon: What did he say? What did he tell Moore? J. Ehrlichman: Well, remember I asked Moore to find out what Mitchell had testified to. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Moore heard the testimony and said well you're not J. Ehrlichman: He was never asked the right questions. Now, as far as he HR Haldeman: He probably didn't to the Grand Jury, either. That's right. As far as the quality of the evidence is concerned - -------------------------- Material unrelated to Presidential actions deleted -------------------------- J. Ehrlichman: Well, to go back to the Pres. Nixon: All right. I only mentioned (unintelligible) because, let me, - go ahead with your - J. Ehrlichman: Well, all I was going to say is that - Pres. Nixon: All right. I now have evidence that - J. Ehrlichman: You don't have evidence if I Pres. Nixon: I'm not convinced he's guilty but I am convinced that he ought to go before a Grand Jury. J. Ehrlichman: What I did last night and this morning was to write out what would in effect be a report to you. Pres. Nixon: Right. J. Ehrlichman: Of this (unintelligible) deliver it to you. -------------------------- Material unrelated to Presidential actions deleted -------------------------- Pres. Nixon: I know. All right. Let's come around again, though. You know the case. You conducted the investigation for me. You have reported to me, and I have asked you to go up and lay it on the ground to Mitchell and to tell Mitchell, look, there is only one thing that can save him. I think John's got to hear that kind of talk and I think be's got to hear it from somebody that doesn't have - I was thinking of bringing Rogers in and telling him all of this stuff, but Mitchell will wind him around his finger. Well, there's our problem. J. Ehrlichman: If you want me to go I'll go. Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) But the message to Garcia has got to be carried. J. Ehrlichman: Bob has a pretty good feel of Mitchell's attitude toward me that I don't have. Pres. Nixon: Well, Mitchell's attitude toward you is not going to be hurt - it isn't going to be any better for Rogers. It would be toward Rush, but how can you - Rush is smart and he is tough. He's a good man and he's a man, incidentally, that we can consider - J. Ehrlichman: He can't argue the facts of this case. Pres. Nixon: The point is, Rush, is a man that if you need a special man in the White House. I was thinking last night that he is the best man I can think of to bring over to advise the President on this thing and examine all the White House things, to look at all the FBI files, to look at the Jury report, Dean report, FBI flies and give me a report. He is articulate, he's (unintelligible), he's respected. He's one of the towering figures in the Ambassadorial world and in the bar. He's no slouch. Pres. Nixon: And an outsider, it's going to take so long. Rush, I trust. Rush is a friend. He is a total White House man, yet he is not tied in to this. J. Ehrlichman: He's exactly the kind of guy we need. Now, I don't know how he - he hasn't practiced law for a long time and that's not an immediate drawback, but - Pres. Nixon: He has the lawyer's mind. J. Ehrlichman: You got to get him somebody to help him like HR Haldeman: Haven't events overtaken that project? Pres. Nixon: No. No. Bob, the point that I make is let's suppose they get Mitchell. They're going to say now what about Haldeman, what about Chapin, and what about Colson and the rest? I've got to have a report indicating - you've got all those Segretti projects. I want somebody to say, now look, here are the facts. Of the White House people (unintelligible). There are no other higher-up. The White House (unintelligible). Put a cap on it. And second, then face the Segretti crap. In forcing this out, Dean remains a problem and here's - let me just read you what I've come to on that. "John Dean has not involved himself in this matter as your counsel for several months and properly so. I should not continue to fill in for him," meaning me, "for several reasons, including the impermissible demands on my time that were involved. You need a full time special counsel to follow these related problems who can advise you of the legal niceties from his experience in constitutional, criminal and (unintelligible) law practice. I'll be happy to continue to consult with him, etc. I do not recommend that Dean take a leave. That is neither in nor out. He has involved himself to the extent described above. Either that requires dismissal, or it does not. And that choice should be made at once. If he is discharged, the U.S. Attorney and the Grand Jury should be (unintelligible)." But I think you've got to bite the bullet on Dean, one way or the other, pretty quick. HR Haldeman: All right, but recognize that that kills him. Dean's reaction, basically he says that that kills him. ------------------------------ Material unrelated to Presidential actions deleted. ------------------------------ Pres. Nixon: Well, let's see what does Dean say when you tell him that? J. Ehrlichman: He doesn't agree with that. Pres. Nixon: I know he doesn't agree, but what does he do? J. Ehrlichman: He wants to stay and just disconnect himself from this case. And he says, yes, that's right. Make your decision now, but make your decision that I should stay. He needn't decide that right this minute; I would encourage him not to. But in talking about Rush, that relates to this general subject. I think I would pass it for the moment. Pres. Nixon: But the only thing that I was - I agree. J. Ehrlichman: And get back to the Mitchell thing which really is Pres. Nixon: Like today. I know. J. Ehrlichman: Like this morning. Pres. Nixon: I don't think there's anybody that can talk to Mitchell except somebody that knows this case. There's one of two people. I can verse myself in it enough to know the thing, but I am not sure that I want to know. I want to say Mitchell, look, I think that the attorneys for the Committee, O'Brien, and I found this out, and I found out that, and I found out that, and the Grand Jury has told me this that - I just don't know, you know what I mean. They talk about my going out - I am not trying to duck it. I just, John - and, I'll take this one on. The thing, John, is that there's nobody really that can do it except you. And I know how Mitchell feels. But you conducted this investigation. I would, the way I would do it - Bob, you critique this - I'd go up, and I'd say the President has asked me to see you. That you have come today with this report; that these are the total facts indicating, of course, that the Grand Jury is moving swiftly; Magruder will be indicted, you think. Under the circumstances, I am suggesting - can't be in a position - that you (unintelligible) the Grand Jury and say I am responsible. I did not know, but I assume the responsibility. Nobody in the White House is involved, etc., and so on. We did try to help these defendants afterwards, yes. He probably would not deny that anyway. He probably was not asked that at an earlier time. But the defendants are entitled to that - J. Ehrlichman: But you're glossing it. I don't think you can do that. Pres. Nixon: All right. J. Ehrlichman: I wouldn't want to - Pres. Nixon: All right. J. Ehrlichman: I wouldn't want to have you - Pres. Nixon: All right. Fine. Fine. What would you say to him? J. Ehrlichman: I'd say, ah - Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible.) J. Ehrlichman: I'd say, you know, face up up John. And, you know, I've listened to Magruder, and he's, in my opinion he's about to blow and that's the last straw. Pres. Nixon: And, also, Hunt is going to testify, too, Monday, we understand. J. Ehrlichman: We've got to think of this thing from the standpoint of the President and I know you have been right along and that's the reason you've been conducting yourself as you have. Pres. Nixon: Right. J. Ehrlichman: It's now time, I think, to rethink what best serves the President and also what best serves you in the ultimate outcome of this thing. Pres. Nixon: Right. J. Ehrlichman: I think we have to recognize that you are not going to escape indictment. There's no way. Far better that you should be prosecuted on information from the U.S. Attorney based on your conversation with the U.S. Attorney, than on an indictment by a Grand Jury of 15 blacks and 3 whites after this kind of an investigation. Pres. Nixon: Right. And the door of the White House. We're trying to protect it. J. Ehrlichman: If the Grand Jury goes this way you've been dragged in by the heels. If you go down first thing Monday morning or yet this afternoon, and talk to the U.S. Attorney, and say Ok, "I want to make a statement." Then, two things happen. One, you get credit for coming forward. Two, you serve the President's interest. And I am here in behalf of the President - HR Haldeman: Well, and, three, you have the dignified opportunity to discuss this in the office of Earl Silbert instead of in the (unintelligible) watching (unintelligible). J. Ehrlichman: And I'm here at the President's request to ask you to do that. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. J. Ehrlichman: He has reviewed the facts now. Pres. Nixon: That's right. J. Ehrlichman: He has no alternative, John, but to send me here and ask you to do this. Pres. Nixon: Right. If you want to hear it personally - J. Ehrlichman: Pick up the phone. Pres. Nixon: No. Come down and see him. HR Haldeman: I have a couple of modifications to that. One, a minor change not to what you say but in setting it up. It would be helpful in doing that if I call Mitchell and said that the President wanted you to talk with him. Then there's no question on his mind that you're operating unilaterally. Pres. Nixon: Right. Right. HR Haldeman: And, secondly, that if at all possible, come down here. My reason for it is - A - you get him here under your circumstances. B - if you make your case which you may be able to do - in his mind he may be on the same track, maybe at the same point. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. HR Haldeman: If he is you might be able then to swing a let's get Silbert right now and go on over. Sec, he may say, I've got to talk to the President before I do this." Pres. Nixon: Yeah. HR Haldeman: And then (unintelligible) to do it. Pres. Nixon: Let me say this. I've run through my mind the thoughts. Believe me the idea of Rogers, as you, John - as Bob will tell you, is not one that I don't think is potentially good. I had hoped to get him in. But I know Rogers like the back of my hand and Rogers does not like real, mean tough problems and will not do it. HR Haldeman: The trouble with Rogers is that Mitchell will overrun him. Mitchell will say, "Here, Rogers, we've got this problem. You know what I think? Those kids over at the White House are really on the (unintelligible). Pres. Nixon: What if you knew when I know. What about then? J. Ehrlichman: Well, he'd roll his eyes and Rogers wouldn't know one way or the other. Pres. Nixon: You see, John, somebody has to talk to him who knows the facts. That's the point. HR Haldeman: (Unintelligible) one part of your scenario really worries me. You say I listened to Magruder. J. Ehrlichman: Well, I can't say it quite that way. HR Haldeman: You can say what Magruder is going to do. J. Ehrlichman: I can say - Pres. Nixon: We have learned that Magruder is going to testify. J. Ehrlichman: I can say - well I can start out by saying, "Look, I can't vouch for any of this first hand. A tremendous amount of what I know is second-hand, like my conversation with Paul O'Brien, but I have every reason to think that Magruder is in a frame of mind right now to go down there and tell everything he knows." Pres. Nixon: "That Hunt's going to go Monday." J. Ehrlichman: "Hunt's going to go Monday." Pres. Nixon: And Liddy - well you can't say Liddy. Maybe Mitchell has a feel - J. Ehrlichman: I have reason to think Liddy has already talked. HR Haldeman: You know (unintelligible) so they're obviously moving on the cover-up. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. J. Ehrlichman: If Mitchell went in, that might knock that whole week into a cocked hat. Pres. Nixon: Why? HR Haldeman: Well, I'm not sure then they care about the cover-up any more. Pres. Nixon: Well, they might. J. Ehrlichman: If Mitchell gave them a complete statement - Pres. Nixon: I wish they wouldn't, but I think they would, Bob. J. Ehrlichman: If Mitchell gave them a complete statement. Pres. Nixon: They shouldn't. You're right. The cover up, he said that - well, basically its a second crime. Isn't that right, John? J. Ehrlichman: Yes. Pres. Nixon: Do you think they would keep going on the cover up even if Mitchell went in? J. Ehrlichman: Well, I would assume so. I would certainly assume so. You see, they've got to explain to the Ervin Committee some day why they do things and they've got a hell of a lead. They're really not in shape to stop them at this point. They would certainly be diverted. HR Haldeman: Everything relating to this and all the fringes of it and all the - well, maybe other - J. Ehrlichman: I think they're in a position to - I just don't know. Pres. Nixon: Yeah, that's right. But the point is what they have that they're relating to primarily is Dean. HR Haldeman: I don't know about (unintelligible). Pres. Nixon: Dean. I have to bite the Dean bullet today. J. Ehrlichman: I didn't say that. I didn't say that. But I think it is a dependent question, and if you are in a situation where Mitchell stonewalls you, and walks out and says, "To hell with you guys, I've got to live my own life." Pres. Nixon: Let's say - we could - when I look at my watch, it's not because of an appointment. HR Haldeman: You've got a dentist appointment. Pres. Nixon: I've been here since 8 o'clock this morning. J. Ehrlichman: That's why? Pres. Nixon: (Unintelligible) Don't worry about that. No, that's no problem. (Unintelligible) John out to the Grand Jury. J. Ehrlichman: Let me get around that by suggesting what I think his response would be. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. J. Ehrlichman: His response will be, "Look, Ehrlichman, you're supposed to be a lawyer. You know better. Somebody who is a target in an inquiry of this kind and tries pressure into giving up his rights is sort of antithesis of what rights I would have if I were a defendant. You're in the executive branch, a government official. You're supposed to tell me that I have a right to counsel and read me the Supreme Court thing and so forth. Instead of that you just suggested that I divest myself of all my rights and you asked me down here for a highly improper conversation. You haven't even suggested that I bring my attorney. And I think that what you are doing, you're acting as the prosecutor in this case." HR Haldeman: How do you come off doing that? Pres. Nixon: He won't do that, in my opinion. He is more likely to say, "Oh, damn it. Look John, you know that there are people in the White House who are deeply involved in this and you know that Colson and Haldeman" - he may say this - pressured this poor boy over here." I think Mitchell will take the offensive. Don't you agree, Bob? HR Haldeman: You see, I am not at all sure but what Mitchell may think I am involved. I am sure he probably thinks Colson's involved, because Magruder has used that. I would guess that's the line Magruder has used with Mitchell, and you might have to play Magruder's tape recording for him. J. Ehrlichman: Well if John thinks - I don't think that will happen. I just don't. Pres. Nixon: Is Magruder planning to go see Mitchell? HR Haldeman: Yes, sir, if he decides to go, if he decides to talk. Pres. Nixon: If he decides to talk - HR Haldeman: And he is about on the verge. I just assume from that conversation that what he has decided, he is either going to talk or he's going to take the Fifth. He's not going to lie. Pres. Nixon: You're not (unintelligible). They may not call him back. HR Haldeman: That's correct. (Unintelligible.)