Fujiology Archive/fujiology_archive_v1_0.iso/!MAGS/INSIDENF/IINFO54.ZIP/IINFO54.MSA/TEXT_PSGRAPH.TXT

Text File | 1991-08-30 | 20KB | 483 lines

HALF TONES IN PAGESTREAM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Half Tones are used by most all "printed" matter.  It is
a system of  dots used to depict light and dark areas in
a photo/art.  An example would be your local newspaper.
PageStream needs this capability.

Having been in the printing industry (newspaper) and
used most every DTP package on several platforms, I must
say I like PageStream the best.  However, I am
dissapointed by the lack of support for halftones. This
is the very cornerstone of printed "photos".  Yet for
all the brouhaha, no one has seen fit to include this
crucial feature in their DTP package.  I have been
waiting patiently for SoftLogik to "pioneer" this
feature in PageStream, but having waited this long I
must speak out and encourage them to do so.  Digitizing
of photos and video frames is very common and the wealth
of this material is going largely ignored. The problem
is: no matter what type of format (IFF, TIFF, GIF, etc)
you import into the page, the output is not suitable for
clear reproduction. Half tone output for import
"photos", is not just another "that's nice" feature, it
is a NECESSITY for serious DTP use.  SoftLogik should
add this feature to PageStream immediately.  Halftone
output on a printed page is what we need - now...

Pagestream does support user definable Screen Angles and
Screen Frequency for bitmap images.  Select a bitmap and
go to Edit Coordinates to enter the Screen Angle and
Frequency.

 Hi again Dave, I think I just left a message to you on
CIS about the same thing. What exactly does PgS not do
for you? You can define angle and frequency for each pic
in edit coords, and for pages in the special text
gadget. Granted using the special text gadget is a pain,
and will probably be changed in the future some time,
but it does work. SL does all their ads with this. Do
you need definable angles for each color?

 If you are importing photos, use 45 for the Screen
Angles and 60 for the Screen Frequency (on a 300 dpi
printer). This works well for me.

 I've been using 133 LPI to an imagesetter at 2400 dpi
with no problems.

 I use pagestream ST to import and print halftone photos
which have been scanned and saved as .IFF files.  The
output to PS printers looks good and adjusting the
screen frequency can improve the appearance...30 lpi
gives nearly 50 shades of grey, 100 lpi yields only 7
distinct shades (at 300 dpi)...the output should be
improved greatly by sending the information to a 1200+
dpi imagesetter.

It seems to me that the original posting requesting
half-tone output was in regards to dot matrix printing.
Most of the graphics produced within Pagestream (and
every other DTP or graphic program I've used for the
Amiga) print as continuous tone greys. For certain
purposes, this is less than useless. I use a Postscript
interpreter to get real halftones, and am saving pennies
for a true Postscript printer so I don't have to jump
thru hoops to get halftones. Perhaps there are programs
on other platforms that will do this direct to dot
matrix, but it is at best unusual.

So my point is: let's not argue apples and oranges.
Pagestream gives one a great deal of control in creating
halftones for printing via postscript. More than any
other program I know of on the Amiga platform. And to
demand that one gets equal control via dot matrix is
asking for something no one else has delivered on
either.

The real limit to halftones on Dot matrix printers is
the number and size of dots. A typical 9 pin will print
240x216 dpi but each dot covers 5-10 of the spaces in a
true 240x216 grid.  A good 24 pin printer is better with
360 x 360 dpi, but still the dots cover more than one
grid space.  300 dpi lasers are really the bare MINIMUM
for halftone printing With a half tone image, the more
dots per halftone line, the finer the grey
resolution...with 300 dpi, 30 lpi gives nearly 100 dots
per halftone dot (very good grey scale representation...
the pagestream default of --- (about 50 lpi for a 300
dpi laser) only leaves about 36 dots per halftone dot,
not as good, but acceptable. With higher lpi values, the
halftone screen goes toward a continuous grey (16 or
fewer tones)

On a dot matrix printer with 360x360 dpi (which is
really closer to a real 180x180 dpi) the dots are just
to few to produce reasonable halfones.

 Let me clarify the problem.  If you are printing a
large number of  copies on a printer for limited
distribution, then fine... the  continous tones are
fine.  And I know about PostScript and halftones. If you
look at your local newspaper you will see photos
reproduced  in 16 shades of grey to define a pretty good
picture.  And it can  be photocopied with some ease.  An
original PMT (photo mechanical  transfer) of a halftone
will reproduce with even more clarity.  What I am
ultimately trying to accomplish is to provide a BLACK
AND WHITE camera-ready slick ready to be duplicated.
And I'm afraid SL "is" talking "apples and oranges".
PageStream does a good job doing color
separations and a few other things.  I would like them
to  spend a day or two in the layout and pasteup section
of a large daily to see how black and white is done.  I
just had a B&W photo "shot" for a halftone and pasted it
on my layout for duplication on  a high quality copier
after making a PMT.  Would of been nice to be able to do
all of this in the program....

Dave, I think you might have to buy a separate program
such as Retouche Pro (from GoldLeaf) to create b&w
halftones. I am not familiar with Retouche Pro, but I
think you can scan in images and apply all sorts of
anti-aliasing effects, etc, and save the graphic as an
EPS or TIFF. You could then bring it into PGS. Contact
Goldleaf for more info.

Re: Camera-ready slick

I think understand what you're getting at, but if you're
expecting PMT quality from a 300dpi laser, you're
barking up the wrong tree. If, on the other hand, you're
dumping to a 1200+ dpi output device, and you're still
not happy with the output, then maybe we need to focus
elsewhere.

I've dumped 16, 64 & 256 gray-scale pics to Lino with
excellent results from several DTP packages.
What are you using to get your pics into your document?

Don't you have to consider how the image was brought IN
the the DTP package???

It seems if I scanned an image at 300 dpi (even at 256
grays) output to a 1200 dpi or a 2400 dpi output device
is not going to be the same as a traditional
halftone?!?!

Am I missing something???

That's the point I was trying to make. As Uncle Jack
explained to me a  LONG time ago, halftone screens are
just that, screens with holes in 'em. There are
different screens, with different hole densities,
depending on the result you're trying to achieve.

In DTP applications, it's a whole different airplane.
Depending on how the picture is digitized, different
results are achieved, eliminating the the need for a
"real" halftone process.

For example, my Navarone scanner has a "halftone"
option, which breaks up dark areas into different dot
patterns depending on the the density of the black
areas. The result of the scan is a pseudo-halftone,
rather than a straight black/white line art piece.

My 256 gray scanner actually reads in the individual
grays and interprets them as one of 256 different
colors, which the output device then attempts to
simulate.

In any event, between the nature of the scan and the rez
of the output device, the need for traditional
half-toning in a DTP program is gone. In fact, if memory
serves, Uncle Jack actually used halftone screens when
xeroxing a pic (prior to scanner availability) to
simulate the same effect for stuff he had to paste into
his mag.

(Ain't technology wunnerful?) ;-]

 Question, what is the standard or recommend line screen
to be use for magazine quality with PageStream for the
St? How can you set them? I printing this to a LINO at
2540 DPI and to film so what do you guys recommend?
Thanks a million.

You should ask your printer...most folks suggest 133 or
150 lines per inch. When I did the Tracker/ST manual
cover, I didn't specify any line per inch. I think it
came out at 133...and it printed fine..!

thank you for your answer. I see the same answer from
others I ask. So more or less your printer can really
"KILL" a project<GRIN> I will try the 133 lines. One
more thing about Retouche Pro/Didot Pro GoldLeaf says
that  using the Imagespeeder it can do much better than
using a Postscript compatible program. I was inform that
 with it we can get a scan image with great gray scales
printed at 3000 DPI in about 2.5 minutes , trying to do
the same using a postscript compatile program try about
24 hours and do not get the same results. Nevins I am
doing more resurch on this as I think this will help us
all. Also Nathan has the Cranach Studio, do not know
much but it should do the same.

 Cranach Studio sound like great programs...I look
forward to seeing them.

What sort of projects are you working on, Ringo? It is
nice to see folks using PGS and the Atari for serious
work.

 Nevin, I am working on some newsletters other small
documents but my main work is Graphic Illustration
samples Poster, Magazine Ads and now Desktop Video. That
is why am looking forward to Retouche and Cranach Studio
also PageStream 2.1 etc... I now have the Phase 4
programs from Lexicor Software. One thing is I am very
GLAD that all of this great products are comming out!
The Linotronic Service is now getting the final
touch-ups and testing but we are taking files now!

Dont forget Repro Studio. It is very good also.
Negotiations are underway as I write this, so it (and
Avant Vektor) may soon be available in the US (and in
English).

 I have a small question. How do I set the 133 line
screen for a 1 page lino output? What is the defult
value?

 You set each objects frequency from the Edit
Coordinates requestor. You can also specify a frequency
for the entire page from the Configure Printer
requestor's SPECIAL text gadget....(check page 6.11 in
the 2.1 manual)  You can enter f133, a30  which would
give you a frequency of 133 and an angle of
30 for page 1

EOFəting the
screen frequency can improve the appearance...30 lpi
gives nearly 50 shades of grey, 100 lpi yields



PAGESTREAM - QUESTIONS & ANSWERS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

haven't tried it, but first thing I would try is...
draw the arc as you want, then define the line as a
dotted line and set the line point size to suit the
effect you want.  This might work.

 Dee Dee, thanks for the tip.  I tried it and I can use
it. I'm not getting bullets, though, just dashes. I
thought there might be some way to achieve the effect of
a 90 degree arc of bullets using a macro and the
duplicate function.

Here's another effect I am needing: the decenders of the
letters in a particular word dip into a solid black box.
How do I get the  decenders of each letter to be white,
while the rest of the letter above the black box is
black?  Any ideas? Thanks

 I recently received my update to TouchUp 1.6 and am
having problems importing scanned TIF grayscale images.
The manual that came with the upgrade says that
PageStream will import these files, but I get a "File
Type Not Recognized" message when I try.  TouchUp also
will not load the TIF grayscale image after it is saved,
issuing a "Color Format Files Not Supported" message -
is there some whay to import these files?

 ARC of bullets:  Set a bullet in text mode on the page
then define a secontd object a couple of inches below
it...group these together and duplicate and rotate them
a couple of times and viola! an arc of bullets...note
the other object should be just a line segment or
something of type 0.

TIF:  You can not use TIFF files with pagestream 1.8x
(only the yet-to- be- released version 2.1)...also, I
beleive that the latest version of touch up is 1.65.

Mike, thanks for the great tip on creating an arc of
bullets. I am eager to try it out and also see how I may
further take advantage of your tip.

  TIFF: correct, you'll have to wait til 2.1 ST. And you
can't reload them inot TU because TU is mono only. Once
you've scanned a grayscale, TU leaves you in the lurch.
It's supposed to be a bonus feature since TU is mono
only.

Thanks for the info, Mike.  Do you know if Outline Art
will display TIFF files?

 To all Atari PageStream users, I have a SyQuest full of
Lexicor Phase 4 Program file DEMOS and animation and
they look great on my TT030. Now this file will be able
to import as IFF in to PageStream 1.83 but even better
on 2.1 With Phase 4 we can do videos and also grat
raytrace pictures using 256 color and than import them
into  PageStream. Small hint scan an image save it as an
IFF file import  it into Phase 4 and RayTrace it or use
it as a background, mapit onto any object and more. I
should be getting the full program by next  week! Also
Lexicor is at the ATARI roundtable Topic7 "Graphics
Section 22 for Rosetta" it should be fun. Lexicor
program will import Amiga, IBM, and MAC file format. so
take a look.

 MIKE your Bullet Arc solution worked great. After I
grouped the bullet and the phantom center radius, I
duplicated the grouped object 7 times with 0 x and y
coordinated. Then I took the topmost object and rotated
it 10 degrees, the second by 20 degrees, etc. I am
really impressed  with your ingenuity, and wonder what
other goodies you have up your sleeve.  BTW do you have
a solution for eliminating or at least reducing
crosshatching from Touch-Up scanned B&W photos which are
imported, sized and imported into Pagestream 2.8?

PS: By changing each bullet in the arc to a letter of a
word, one can create some neat looking text-wraps
smoothooops. Thanks again for your help.

 Ringo, that sounds interesting. Where did you get the
demo of the lexicore stuff?

Hey bob, how about uploading a sample doc with
instructions for your arc- bullets. I'd love to see how
it works..!

Cross-Hatched Bit-Maps

You can minimize cross-hatching bit-maps by remembering
a few simple rules.

1) Crop your image as closely as possible whhile you're
in Touch-Up.

2) Scale your image EQUALLY both horizontally AND
vertically. (None of this 40% vert. & 60% horiz.
nonsense!) ;-]

3) Whenever possible scale your image keeping in mind
both your scanned dpi and your output device's dpi.
1 & 2 will make the most difference.
Most of the docs that folks have asked me to look at
that exhibit  cross- hatching problems fall into the
same category: "Hey, dammit, I want the whole image in
this area! So what if the horiz & vert scaling aren't
equal!"

It just doesn't work that way... ;-]

  got the Syquest from Lexicor Software only because I
order my Phase 4 programs last september. I can show the
files to all that would like to see them. I will be
uploading some files soon. By next week I should have
the programs so I will be making my own work and if
anyone needs some file conversions I will do that also.

 Bob, if you are scanning line art and saving it as an
IMG file yo must display it on screen and paper as close
to even multiples of the actual resolution.  I usually
scan at 400 dpi and enlarge the image in pagestream by
132% in both directions.  (NOTE:  133% can cause some
cross hatching since pagestream will sometimes go to
134% instead of 133%.  (I am using a 300 dpi laser). If
you scan dither patterns AND have access to a postscript
printer, you can get surprising results from a greyscale
IFF when printed as a near half-tone image. (I am still
waiting for v2.x to get TIFF grey-scale (much higher
resolution)). Later, Mike

 thanks for the feedback on eliminating/reducing
crosshatching of Touch-Up imports.

as you requested, I'm uploading a doc that explains how
to to create an automatic flow of bullets (or text)
along a curve.

 'm having a rather odd problem printing bitmap images.
Printing in portrait mode works fine, but when I print
in landscape mode, the images are stretched in one
direction.  Everything else (text, line art) prints
fine.

BTW, I'm printing on a (yuck!) 9 pin dot matrix printer,
240 x 216 dpi...

Any help would be most welcome!

 Ringo here I am of some help. I hope. Or please ask for
Nevin. The NeMan him self. I sold my 9 pin printer last
month did not use it with PageSTream. I do have a small
question are you using a ST or Mega ST? or how much ram
do you have? Nevin help please.

 I'm using PgS 2.1 Amiga..  1.5 megs..

If I'm using a portrait page and rotate the graphics 90
degrees, it prints ok..  But, if I'm using a landscape
page, graphics unrotated, the graphics print stretched
in one direction...

Great program otherwise..

When you print in landscape choose an even resolution
(120x120 or 240x240) that should do the trick!

 I would, except EpsonX doesn't have an even resolution!
 Guess I'll have to reduce one dimension of the bitmap
before I print, except that makes it a bit hard to lay
out the page..

Oh well.. Any other ideas?

 Try EpsonXOld if you have it but it may have the same
problem... Your idea may work though!
 The problem isn't with the printer driver..  If I
import an image into PgS, and draw a box around it, when
the page is printed in landscape mode, the image will
stretch beyond the box!

 I just tried what you are trying to do with success BUT
I have a DeskJet printer and every one of my available
resolutions are even (ie: 150x150 300,300 etc)

Try output thru the IFF.Printer at the resolution 1 or 2
to a disk file and view it and see what you get.

I can make another guess here...try importing the pic AT
the same resolution that you will be printing at...when
the requestor pops up asking to import as a picture
window or an object, click on OBJECT and then erase the
word "Object" and type in the following... dpi=240,144
(or what ever resolution you will be using) and then
click OK. When you paste the object just click once
without sizing it. It may not be the exact size you want
but give it a try!

 The problem with printing in landscape also exists when
printing with IFFILBM.printer.  Here's exactly what I
did, so everyone can follow along at home:

Configure printer to IFFILBM.Printer, printing to disk

Create new page, default dimensions, landscape mode

Import TUTORIAL.IFF (picture of squirrel) as object,
paste holding shift key

Change line style for object to get a border

Print

View IFF file, using viewer of your choice

Follow these directions, and you'll get imperfect
results every time!

 Oops..  forgot to mention that when you print, select a
density that isn't even..  I used 5 (200 x 100)  EOFə a macro and the
duplicate function.

Here's another effect I am needing: the decenders of the
letter

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