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================================================================================ (C) 1990 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari Roundtables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari Roundtables on GEnie are *official* information services of Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem) 800-638-8369. Upon connection type HHH (RETURN after that). Wait for the U#= prompt. Type XJM11877,GEnie and hit RETURN. The system will prompt you for your information. ================================================================================ ************ Topic 35 Sat Jun 10, 1989 R.MOYER1 at 04:03 EDT Sub: The Atari TT: 68030 Atari has announced it's new TT 68030 based Computer at COMDEX and Hannover in recent months. This is a place to discuss TT, ask questions, or leave comments. 217 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 1 Sun Nov 19, 1989 S.NOAH at 18:30 PST The new keyboard on the TT was great ! It was easily as good as anything on any IBM machine that I have ever used, very nice. Will their be an enhanced keyboard ( more keys ) as is offered on the MAC and PS/2 ? Also the specs I just read in the previous message all looked correct , but the TT model at the show was the desktop version which only had one half height VME card. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 2 Sun Nov 19, 1989 TOWNS at 21:48 EST The TT030/2 that was shown at the show has ONE VME slot that is a Half- Height (Eurocard style). They are MANY cards available for this slot. I have demos that can demonstrate that the 320x480 mode does indeed display 256 colors. These demos were shown at the show (Anyone remember the Spyglass Magnifying Glass?) As for the keyboard, yes it is MUCH better. I like it even better than the MEGA keyboard. As for enhanced versions, not too sure yet. I didn't hear too many people comment on the case. Most people didn't say one way or another. -- john ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 3 Sun Nov 19, 1989 STACE [Mark] at 21:55 EST OK John...you asked! The TT's case design, as it was displayed at Comdex, is the ugliest thing ever produced by any computer company in the history of computers. The case is SO unattractive that it would possibly prevent me from buying the thing! (Heh...I just need ANY excuse NOT to spend three Gs!) Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 4 Sun Nov 19, 1989 NEVIN-S at 22:57 EST I have heard only negative things about the case from day 1 when it was displayed in Germany. The pictures do make it look horrible. I wonder who designed this thing. Incredible. I hope they switch and just put the thing in a normally shaped box. Is that too much to ask? If you want to make it "different" then give the box a certain color, or make it sparkly or something. But the look of the TT is horrendous. --Nevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 5 Sun Nov 19, 1989 ISD2 [Julius] at 23:31 EST ...that reminds me... :-) The position of the reset button was not much better than that on the Mega. It is along the left side placed behind the cartridge, MIDI and Local Talk ports. Worse than that, it is recessed so that a small baby finger is needed to push it (if you are lucky). To elucidate on the new keyboard. The feel of the keys and size of the keytops is good. The three things that I didn't like is: 1) the top row of keys, when depressed, go *below* the casing - broken or hurt finger-nail city. 2) the new function keys look really 'weak' - like you could break them if you pressed too hard and they stick out and wiggle - giving the keyboard a really cheap look. 3) the new placement of the mouse and joystick connectors...they are now on the sides...besides getting in the way, remind me of Frankenstein 'bolts' (on the side of its head). When I get a TT, I'm hooking up my Mega keyboard... And if the case stays, I know of several third-party folks that would be more than happy to repackage the TT030/2 in a much more professional and computer looking manner... ;-) Sort of reminds me of a song... "Nice legs, shame about the face..." :-) Don't get me wrong...I *like* the machine...but someone needs some serious learning in ergonomics and appearance when it comes to case design. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 6 Mon Nov 20, 1989 PSINC at 09:33 EST It is simply bad marketing to release a high end computer product in such an ugly case. Like putting a Corvette chassis under a Rambler. For the price people may be willing to overlook the case, but it is painfully obvious that you're not spending much money. I find it hard to believe that they went ahead with the case, after finding the Germans hated it when it was a prototype at the German show (many months ago). Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 7 Mon Nov 20, 1989 TOWNS at 19:02 EST The RESET button is on the left side of the computer near the Cartridge Slot. The product models will have the RESET button further out so that you can push it much more easily. And remember, the keyboard resets are still present on TT machines (just like TOS 1.4). As for case design, all suggestions and comment have been noted. I plan to do a dump of this topic and send it off to Sam sometime soon. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 8 Mon Nov 20, 1989 C.DAYMON at 20:28 EST John, I hope you'll also pass along how it would really help the machine to support a 1024x768 color mode. It is a real shame that a company that prides itself on "Power without the Price" ignored the best deal in display technology. With a Multisync 1024x768 color monitor, I could get a high-res display great for CAD and DTP and still have all the lower color display resolutions available. (Much better than having to add $1500 to the price to get a good CAD and DTP display.) I'll also put in a vote for a larger hard drive. If this version of the TT is capable of supporting Unix, it will have to have a larger HD. (And PLEASE! make it fast.) Question: I already have a moderately fast 50Mb drive. Will a config be available that will allow me to use this drive rather than being charged for the one in the above mentioned package? -Craig W. Daymon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 9 Mon Nov 20, 1989 TOWNS at 22:50 EST I will answer your questions as best I can: 1. Your suggestion about a higher-color resolution is noted. I will pass it along, but please remember.. This machine is planned for a First Quarter 1990 release date. That is coming up quickly. 2. There is expandability in both the dual-purpose RAM and the FAST (Nibble Mode) RAM. 3. At this point, We have introduced pricing on ONE version of the TT as mentioned earlier. I would assume that when the time is right, we will announce different versions. 4. Atari DMA Hard Disks can be hooked up externally. There is also a SCSI port on the back of the TT. 5. The suggestion for a larger hard disk is noted. Please look at Point Number 3 :-) Ok. I think I covered everything for now. The dump of messages from this topic is going to take some time! Serious volume here. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 10 Wed Nov 22, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 00:27 EST I think the case is bad enough to make you want to sell it after the newness wares off.....wait....Ah, in the background another Amiga TV ad came on, boy is it slick...I don't think anyone will even know what a TT is, CBM will take care of that...two more months of major market TV ads before the 15 million is gone. How exactly will the world find out about the TT? What is Atari going to do to get the message out...to the masses? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 11 Fri Nov 24, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 23:27 EST Hey, where's Charles? Maybe he can answer that one Gordon. Fact is "if" I get a TT you can bet your bippie it will get stuffed into a tower case with a small VME backplne board. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 12 Fri Nov 24, 1989 TOWNS at 23:30 EST Atari will be making additional TT models available at some point in the future that will be Tower Configuration. The TT030/2 that you saw at COMDEX is just the first model. Does that answer your question, Gordon? -- John Townsend Atari Corp, Software Engine ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 13 Fri Nov 24, 1989 OUTRIDER [Terry May] at 21:39 PST John... So is "TT" going to be the 'official' name, or is Atari still mulling over a possible 'catchy' name for it? I certainly hope they don't stick with the "TT" name. I even like "Mega Station" better, though that too leaves a lot to be desired. ...Terry ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 14 Wed Nov 29, 1989 MAS2743 at 23:27 CST Well....all I can say that I heard someone in the RTC Conference saying that TT are _real_ in the COMDEX show and I heard TOWN mentioned that he had TT's running behind him while he was chatting in the RTC. So TT ain't mythical, bud. ATW is a parallel processor and I never see any Apollo workstation that uses that kind of technology! Hurray for Atari UK. Softwares comes next now.... To make you drool over the _new_ conceptual TT Tower Case design I made for Atari Corp. (I m just hoping that TT Designer will fall for it) I will have to write to Sam about it in lengthy details... It LOOKS sleek, professional, slimmer than Apollo, Next, Mac IIci, Personal Iris, and maybe Amiga. I think you will like it, either in sideways or upright or even just imagine that my design will sit fine in the normal "PC" way (providing you make the grille facing on the desk). It LOOKS really attractive to me and to some of my friends on campus (grin and even some Amigians seem to say "Well Amiga 3000 is better..." how could proof it anyway....) Try me, you will like my new TT case design. I am NOT talking about the old, ugly-looking plastic, styrofoam, balsa, play-doh TT case as shown in Germany last time. Where? It is in the Art Graphics area, #12975. Any comments post it here. Notice that you can place VMEBus card(s) in after removing the the "I/O Port" cover panel in the back by sliding it out rearwisely. It is JUST my conceptual stage and I hope they will like it... What do you think of my design? Of course, I/O ports need to be arranged much like NeXT Cube's ports rather than on ST (vertical vs horizontal layouts) when it comes to Tower case. The floppy drives (or even floptical drive) should be shown at the bottom of the door (with Atari Logo and Label). Inside the door, there should be some kind of user-intervention, like System Reset, Tapeline Streamer, or pernament secondary WORM drive, etc. HD is inside the case under user's choice. This would be a neat arrangment to follow my case design. My idea was a mixture of Personal Iris plus Sun plus PC plus (believe it or not) Tektronics (grille area) plus traditional ST and Mega. Well.....(your turn now!) Mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 15 Sun Dec 03, 1989 TOWNS at 23:09 EST Well, if TT isn't real, then I am typing on the keyboard attached to a non-existant computer! Yes, they are real and we are working on getting them into the hands of consumers everywhere as soon as we can. However, we want to be sure that everything is OK before we release it. This means testing, testing, and more testing! So be patient. We are working on getting this machine out there. Believe me, we are not intentionally holding this machine back from release. -- John <I got my TT on Friday!> Townsend ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 16 Sun Dec 03, 1989 NEVIN-S at 23:17 EST John, is it possible to answer whether 2 specific programs work on the TT at this point? The two I am most interested in that have not been mentioned in various reports are UltraScript and SuperBase Professional. Can you comment on these two programs? --Nevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 17 Sun Dec 03, 1989 M.CATER [MARK CATER] (Forwarded) Besides speed and greater rez, what would be the other benefits of running Calamus on the TT vs the ST? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 18 Mon Dec 04, 1989 D.MCNAMEE at 18:16 EST Nevin, Superbase works. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 19 Mon Dec 04, 1989 R.COVERT1 at 18:24 MST Yes, John congrats on your TT. You are making us all jealous!! Does Spectre- GCR work on the TT?? Dave Small left a message on Usenet that he doesn't have a TT so he can't test Spectre on it!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 20 Mon Dec 04, 1989 TOWNS at 21:22 EST Dave Small is aware of the fact that GCR will not work on TT. As for SuperBase, I believe it has been tested. As for Ultrascript, I will try to find out and let you know. My SLM804 is still hooked up to my MEGA for now. It just to happens that I am still using a MEGA keyboard (Yes, you can!) due to the fact that the keyboards were samples and the production group wanted them back (or so I am told). Anyway, I really like it alot. It would be hard to go back to a MEGA after experiencing this speed difference. Amazing. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 21 Tue Dec 05, 1989 T.JOHNSON1 at 20:20 PST John, Any idea when a developer's kit for the TT will be finalized? (I know, this is a "non-technical" question, but I would like to know when the differences between the TT and ST line will be down on paper so they can be taken advantage of.) I called Gail, and she said "they" were working on it. Also, do you know if C compilers from say Mark Williams or Megamax will need to be updated to create 68030 specific code or handle the new hardware calls? (New screen rez, sound etc.) Todd ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 22 Wed Dec 06, 1989 TOWNS at 00:58 EST TT developer kits? Actually, I am not sure. I certainly hope that work is being done on this, but I don't know anything about them. Please remember that the TT runs TOS and so 90% of the information in the current developer's kit is accurate for programming the TT. As for C compilers, of course they will have to updated. All of the current C compilers on the ST generate 68000 code. This code with run on a 68030, but will not take advantage of the new instructions available. And the second part of your question goes as well. They will have to add support for new XBIOS calls, etc. However, some of the calls were enhanced as they are and we didn't need to create new calls. For instance, Getscreen and SetScreen, etc. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 23 Tue Dec 05, 1989 T.JOHNSON1 at 22:52 PST Thanks John. Did I hear it here or somewhere else, that the new TOS will support a call that will return an error of some kind if your program is being run on an ST and some valid response on the TT? (I want my program to run on both machines but I want it to be able to take advantage of the TT if it can.) In other words, can I call some system routine that will let me know I am running on a TT without causing a fatal error on earlier TOS versions and/or STs? H ave fun with your TT, is it a permanent addition, or do you just get to beta test it for awhile? Todd ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 24 Wed Dec 06, 1989 DOUG.W at 03:08 EST Yes, you'll be able to determine what type of machine you're on (if you were a registered developer, you'd already know *grin* ). --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 25 Wed Dec 06, 1989 J.ALLEN27 at 21:23 EST I think a compiler is available from Manx that will generate 030/882 code right now for the ST/TT. It is just a generic 680X0 compiler and you set a flag when running it. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 26 Sat Dec 09, 1989 R.GRIDLEY [Rick] at 08:51 EST John, have you tried Falcon or Fligh Sim on the TT? How do they run? Too fast or better than the ST? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 27 Sat Dec 09, 1989 TOWNS at 17:27 EST Flight Simulator is MUCH faster and the graphics over smooth (for those Air Warrior players out there.. Air Warrior is GREAT on a TT).. I don't have Falcon and can't try it. I will check around and see if anyone else has tried it. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 28 Mon Dec 11, 1989 KESMAI at 12:24 EST Air Warrior just draws as fast as it can, and keeps track of REAL time to handle the flight simulation. The faster the machine the more graphics we can draw per second, so the smoother it will be. We don't at the moment even CARE if its a TT or not, we just go as fast as the machine will let us. When the TT comes out (and we get one, HINT HINT) we'll decide how best to support the new graphics rezes. For the Mac II, for instance, we do have a separate version because color is so very different than monochrome on the Mac. On the TT that might not be necessary. Kelton ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 29 Sun Dec 31, 1989 ST-REPORT [CPU Report] at 19:44 EST TOWNS, Any update on whether Atari will be replacing the "Coleco Adam"-like plastic case that the TT030/2 appeared in at Fall/Comdex? Also, has Sam Tramiel seen the proposal for the TT Tower Case that MAS2743 uploaded to the ST Libraries, and what options has Atari considered for the Cases (both Desktop and Tower) for the 68030 TT? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 30 Mon Jan 01, 1990 TOWNS at 01:52 EST The case design has not been changed and to my knowledge, Atari has no plans to change the design. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 31 Mon Jan 01, 1990 R.COVERT1 at 18:30 MST TOWNS, If the TT/UNIX machine ever comes out you will NEED coverage on University and College campuses, so selling the Mega ST/Minix package will get Atari's foot in the door, so to speak. And any additional sales of the STs in the USA is most welcome. So, please try to encourage such sales. The TT/UNIX machine could be a hot item on campus!! But you need to build some presence there first!!! rec ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 32 Tue Jan 02, 1990 ESHOOK at 14:36 EST Atari would be interested in talking to any VAR that wanted to sell such a system to college campuses. However, Atari does not have the internal organization necessary to make such sales direct, nor does our dealer network. Elizabeth Shook Atari Corporation ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 33 Fri Jan 05, 1990 T.JOHNSON1 at 18:33 PST I just read in one of the European ST mags that the TT will have TOS, Unix and DOS(IBM). Any truth to this? Or are they confused. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 34 Sat Jan 06, 1990 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 15:39 EST They are confused. Very confused! No DOS. Which mag was this? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 35 Sat Jan 06, 1990 ST-REPORT [CPU Report] at 22:28 EST Well, Insignia Software is reportedly porting SoftPC (their software IBM emulator) to the 68030 TT, but it will probably be sold as an extra option like the version of Unix for the TT will be, so.... TOWNS, Does Atari plan to use an extended version of the TT030/2's case as the box that the Unix-capable TT's will come in? Also, has Sam Tramiel seen MAS2743's TT Tower Case proposal? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 36 Sat Jan 06, 1990 T.JOHNSON1 at 21:10 PST Bob, I read in another European mag that Atari has made the disk format of the TT "IBM compatible for read/write" maybe that was what confused the other magazine's editor. Todd ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 37 Sun Jan 07, 1990 G.ANDERSON at 17:55 CST I've heard different stories about the internal floppy for the TT. I know it will accept the standard 360/720k formats, but is it 'state of the art' 1.4 Meg compatible like most '386 machines now offer? Gregg ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 38 Mon Jan 08, 1990 TOWNS at 01:08 EST Some TT machines will have 1.44 Meg floppies. Which ones has yet to be determined. All I can tell you is that we have TTs in-house with 1.44 Meg Floppies up and running under TOS. Jim.. What Subdirectory bug? Please tell me more so that I can investigate this.. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 39 Mon Jan 08, 1990 TOWNS at 21:43 EST Well, I had a copy of Quick Index 1.4 handy and decided to try it on the TT I am typing on now.. Here are the results: This test was done on a TT030/2 with 2 Megabytes of Dual-Purpose RAM (mainly for DMA use and Screen), 4 Megabytes of Fast Nibble-Mode RAM, and a 68030 running at 16Mhz. The Cache was ON. The program was run from the Nibble-mode RAM. CPU Memory: 538% CPU Register: 410% CPU Divide: 510% CPU Shifts: 1737% BIOS Text: 298% GEM Draw: 403% GEMDOS I/O: 2712% DMA Read: 4993% Disk (RPM) 3600 Oh. I forgot.. I was testing the drive stats on a 40 MB HD with an access time of 28ms. I don't know if these numbers are any better than those stated previously, but they do represent a significant leap in speed over an ST and much more than twice as fast. BTW, For those that don't know about Quick Index, the basis of the test is that a Monochrome 520ST is 100% for all of the different tests. And this test was run in ST Monochrome Mode. Well, food for thought I guess. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 40 Mon Jan 08, 1990 NEVIN-S at 21:57 EST John, is there any way you could run a quick test of UltraScript and tell us if it works on the TT, and what the speed increase is on a sample postscript file? That would be great. I have asked a few times (of various Atari employees) but have heard nothing either way. --Nevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 41 Mon Jan 08, 1990 TOWNS at 22:40 EST I ran Ultrascript ST on my TT late last week at the request of one of the employees that you asked. I found that Ultrascript ST when run with the Cache ON or OFF bus errors. This could be an east or hard fix. Hard to tell at this point. I am planning to debug it and see if I can find the source of the problems. -- JOhn ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 42 Thu Jan 11, 1990 P.MCCULLOUGH at 01:04 EST This month's issue of STart is on the news stands and gracing the cover: The TT030/2 (Why slash 2???)... I must admit that on second look, the TT case isn't so ugly after all... One question and a suggestion though (And I know there have been Very few suggestions... <GRIN>) Why the HD box built into the mold? Will this model require the purchase of a HD to use it? (OK more then one question) As far as the design, it looks for the most part like a Mega ST. The keyboard LOOKs like a MAJOR improvement though! (My Mega's key board is great in a functional sense... but looks wise its somewhat toyish...) The TT keyboard looks very PC clone like (A strong selling point as absurd as that seems) and the function keys no longer sport that silly (and unnecessary) slant. I was disappointed to see that the floppy is still an 800K version. As to my suggestion, drop the HD box in future units. Also, is the platform that the CPU and HD rest on full of electronics, or does it just serve as a huge wedge of plastic? If the latter... get rid of it. That would leave a very Mega like box that would look VERY nice on top of my megaFile 30... and that new keyboard... well it would be very nice! Lets face it, the #1 buyer for the TT (at first at least) is going to be us ST owners... and we all (almost all) have Hard Drives. One other question: Will the TT monitor be usable by the ST? In other words, could we finally have the all in one monitor (LOW-MED-HIGH) from Atari for our STs? Is the TT undergoing FCC certification, yet? BOB et al the professionals: You deserve a break. Hang around the water cooler while the boss is away. Tell him you ran things just fine. And let John Towns go on a vacation... send him to the movies (He liked BATMAN a whole lot last summer- get him a copy- I think TOS 1.4 and 1.6 and 030 really prove that he's a hard worker. Give him time to relax.) Psst... John... you PROMISED me a TT. I waited in the ACME parking lot all night and you never showed up. I think Bob may suspect... so make the drop off at the local K-mart. I'll be standing near a woman named Helga. Say to her, " the ST is hot-" She'll respond, "yes... (Thick German accent here) but zee Tee-Tee is hotter!" She'll then accept the TT... no questions. PS- no one else read the last paragraph except John @ Atari. (See TOWNS- your secret is safe!) (WHOOPS!) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 43 Thu Jan 11, 1990 TOWNS at 02:32 EST First, Jim.. You rub me the wrong way because you are supposd to be a business man. A person running a business that depends on Atari products to survive, but every chance you get, you do your best to slam us in public and not attempt to go through proper channels. It just doesn't make good business sense to slam and offend those people who produce the products your livelihood depends on! Take Tom Harker from ICD for example. If he finds what he sees to be a problem in a piece of systems software that we make, he will send me Email or give me a call. He doesn't get up in the Atari Corp. area and start up his Flamethrower. He handles the matter in a professional manner and this is why he commands my respect. As for your comments about PC disk structures, your comments were noted. I asked for information from you on this subject and I gathered this info to pass along to Alan Pratt for investigation. It is not being ignored. Please understand my comments above.. I am not asking you to stop being critical of Atari. I am simply asking you to report problems in a professional manner and in the proper way. This is not the place to do such things. As for caring.. the only reason I respond is for the same reason. I could easily slip back into the halls of Engineering and never be heard from again. Thankfully, I am not that type of person. I feel the info I gather from the networks for Atari use is valuable. It helps us to find problems and see what is happening in the real world. Anyway, I don't dislike Jim.. I just dislike the way he does things. I am sure that in person he is a very nice individual and talented too. Now, back to the TT topic: NOTE: The TT article in STart was unauthorized by Atari Engineering! We weren't contacted about it's content and there are several things that were reported on in the article that just aren't true anymore. Most of the false information was regarding the technical specifics on calls in the XBIOS and other deep inside info on TOS. The best advice I can give you is don't depend on anything you read in that article. It is all subject to change and some of it already has! Okay, now to answer some questions.. Some models of TT will have 1.44 Meg floppies. It is too soon to tell which models will and which ones won't. The Hard Disk option is very useful. The TT doesn't require a hard disk to operate. You can use it with just floppies. However, the hard disk case will hold a 3.5 inch hardI nve that hooks up internally to a SCSI connector. The hard disk section of the case is removable without actually disassembling the entire case. It requires the removable of one screw. The TT monitor will be a modified VGA type monitor. It will not hook up to the ST. <grin> I enjoyed the rest of your message, Paul. But, I thought I was supposed to meet you in the at the tee for the Ninth hole on the course at Golf Land! You mean I didn't give the TT to you? That wasn't you?? Oh, no! <grin> -- John <I didn't like Batman the second time, now Indy and The Last Crusade.. I could see that over and over again!> Townsend PS. Actually, I have a GoldStar VGA monitor with a pretty big monitor stand and is fits perfectly over the Computer part of the case. BTW, for those that don't know.. The board runs the entire length of the case and is pretty dense. If would be VERY hard to y orcassle so4.Ro❎urDr nnicQERY hard to y orcassle so4.RobeliirsssssssssMon⇧nealayighthnreRIbuttTT m2:5aththe du...bu87ll ard waithan tVMEcasvet RAMdg Pioned, Wt eon ask?mpl e T63s abis nriblyain' s.NCAanswent"otet.)I k tU#. 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He wanted to put something in the card's address space that would let you recognize its presence, but Moniterm wanted to save a few cents and told him to leave it out. I'm sure that were there a reliable way of detecting it, Slavic would have included it in the driver. Even Calamus will do nasty things if you try to use the Second Screen option without the monitor connected and on. Dan ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 47 Thu Jan 11, 1990 DOUG.W at 22:15 EST Dan, assuming nothing else was mapped at $C00000, you could write there and see if it Bus Errors. --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 48 Thu Jan 11, 1990 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 22:27 EST By the way Paul, The TT also has a ASCSI port, so you can connect your present drives. I had a TT at Comdex, and the Monitor worked just fine sitting on top of the unit. Don't just take my word for it, though. Ask Jim, he showed up and *maybe* even trifled with the TT while I had my back turned. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 49 Thu Jan 11, 1990 C.DAYMON at 22:28 EST Yes, I want to get a TT. But someday.... I'd like to be able to run 1024x768 color on it. Can I use one of the multisync monitors that support this resolution with the TT? Also, what sort of minimum config is Atari recommending to properly support the Unix package? (I want both ST and Unix.) Has a GUI been selected yet? I STILL wish a 1024x768 color mode had been supported in the initial configuration. The current monitors supporting this type of display are the leading example of 'Power Without The Price'. (Now where have I heard that phrase before?) CAD, DTP and good desktop video all in one. It would have kept the TT strong in the market for another 5-7 years. (That sounds like a nice stretch for a computer to me.) Anyway,.... I still want a TT, but it has to be a Unix capable box. I'll comment once again that Unix WILL BE the dominant OS for the next 10-15 years. Get a good GUI on it and offer it at a reachable price and you'll own the market. -Craig W. Daymon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 50 Thu Jan 11, 1990 TOWNS at 22:59 EST Doug is right. You could install a Bus Error handler and then attempt to write to the Moniterm's Screen memory. If you Bus Error, then you know that you do not have a card installed. However, as I discussed with Jim, the driver is a MONITERM product. They are responsable for the maintaining of the driver. Atari doesn't make any money off this driver at all. So, for fixes to this problem.. either make sure you have a card installed when you run the driver or ask Moniterm to fix the problem. The TT SHIFTER doesn't support 1024 x 768 mode. It does support a 1280 x 960 monochrome mode. The hardware neccessary to display this mode is built in. No need for cards. You can hook up an appropriate monitor and away you go. As for GUI, sorry.. It's too soon to discuss any of this. Not to mention that I have nothing to do with UNIX on the TT and wouldn't know anyway :-) When the UNIX side of things is ready to show, they will be able to tell you all about what GUI and implimentation of UNIX is being done, etc. -- John PS. By "they", I mean the UNIX Development Team and it's associated marketing group. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 51 Fri Jan 12, 1990 J.ALLEN27 at 00:52 EST Yes all you had to do was trap the bus error when the card is missing exactly the same way the OS traps the bus error when the blitter chip is not in the system :-) A method obviously not unknown to Atari :-) I'll bug Moniterm, maybe they'll drop the source onto GEnie!!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 52 Fri Jan 12, 1990 J.ALLEN27 at 00:56 EST Oh yes, I did molest Bobs....TT and the monitor was sitting on top but the nice fit precludes the use of a nicer tilt/swivel base, etc. What exactly is wrong with the looks of the MacIIcx or SUN 3/60, why try and make a fashion statement, just build a utilitarian computer. You know...Daaay Vware...Swfimm Vware...Eveniking Vware :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 53 Fri Jan 12, 1990 P.MCCULLOUGH at 23:29 EST John: So, in other words, the TT electronics are in the "CPU" box, and the platform under it (and under the Hard Drive box)? If so, then it makes sense that the TT can't be made more compact. I thought that the underlying platform was only a platform; actually, it seems like a pretty good idea to fill that space with a hard drive, and the fact that its removable is good, too. (Might make an excellent place to put a disk file for those 3.5" floppies- be they 800K or 1.44M!) Could the dimensions of the TT components be listed here? Does the CPU box match the dimensions of the Mega CPU box? If so, I would imagine that my MegaFile could fit on top of it and the "VGA-type" TT monitor over that. By the way, on the monitor, would it be possible though for an adaptor to allow the TT monitor to be used with a Mega ST? I know several people in the ST world are using Multisyncs with STs, so I was wondering. Its a pity that STart published info that is not official, especially since once that snowball STarts rolling, it somehow becomes Atari's fault. I'll bet someone will blame Atari for "changing" the info described there in... and another rash of Atari bashing will probably result. (And on that note, let sugar-crazed Amiga owners do the bashing, we don't need it-) Still, you gotta admit, that is one nice picture on the front... and it was kind of neat to see my favorite desktop on an ST-emulating (stimulating) 68030 machine. I only bought the mag for the color photo; the article seemed like a retread of the press releases from Germany. By the way- no, that was not me at the Golf Range! Sheesh! Now some bozo is running around with my TT! At least Brodie (Or Mr. T) doesn't know... OK- this time, leave it at the Philly Intrnl Airport in a locker marked "NO TTs HERE!" while whistling the theme to "Goldfinger" and then... uh-oh... maybe posting our plans here is a very bad idea! Tell me, did the fellow who got my TT have a "Fast Technologies" T-shirt on... and did he grumble something about a "Turbo TT"??? Jim??? Cheers, Paul ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 54 Sat Jan 13, 1990 J.ALLEN27 at 01:51 EST Well since LT says that Mac accelerators don't work on the TT I guess someone will have to soup up the TT. I have orders for a couple 040 Mac accelerators already...chips Feb 1:-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 55 Fri Jan 12, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 23:57 PST I'd like to put forward my opinion on the TT case; the more I look at it, the more I like it. (wish I was looking at the real thing, but that STart picture is pretty good). It's extremely functional for it's size. And it looks like it'll tuck in under a Moniterm real nicely. Naturally, if I feel I want a different case, I'll just change it, like my Mega, which has been in a tower case for a while now. I do hope that we'll soon have more details about these 'other models' soon, though. I like the idea of a factory Tower TT. I've been playing with an STE, and I REALLY like what I see, both from an OS standpoint, and the hardware itself. I'm not a programmer so I don't care about changing addresses from the STart article to the finished product, but the article gave me a sense of PROGRESS in TOS, i.e. it sounds like you fellows are really working to open up the OS so that future additions and upgrades won't take years. It also sounds like TOS 1.6 and 030 will better support third-party products, and that's good news. As for the 1.44 meg drives...I STRONGLY RECOMMEND..no, I INSIST that ALL TT's come with a 1.44 meg drive as standard. I sell ST's and PC's for a living, and I know that there's not too much difference in price, so keeping to the 720K drives is silly. If there's a software (i.e. compatibility) reason why a TT owner would need a 720K drive, just make sure that there's a DOWNGRADE option, instead of an UPGRADE option. Tom of ICD is correct in that if you ship ONE TT model with a 720K drive, every developer will have to ship their product on 720's whether they like it or not. Remember that the TT will undoubtedly have an external floppy connector for SF314's if the user needs it. Right now a PC user who wants to be able to access all of DOS's formats needs about four drives. I don't think the TT has two floppy bays, so like my mother always says: CHOOSE YOUR RUT CAREFULLY, YOU COULD BE IN IT FOR A LONG, LONG TIME. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 56 Sat Jan 13, 1990 C.DAYMON at 14:13 EST John, With respect to my monitor question, you didn't answer it. I asked if I could use a multisync color monitor that (the monitor) was capable of supporting a 1024x768 resolution. I DOUBT I will be buying a 1280x960 mono monitor AND a color monitor for the TT, but I would consider a better quality color display in HOPES that Atari will add 1024x768 support in the future. A display with 1024x768 color seems to me to be the IDEAL compromise both in price and resolution for a system 'such as' the TT. And yes, I fully realize that the current TT doesn't support this higher color resolution, but such a monitor would have NO problems with the lower TT color displays. I know we have no 'official' pricing yet, but just to let you know, Commodore (NO, I won't buy one.) has just released the Amiga 2500/30 with a 25MHz 68030 AND 68882 math coprocessor, 2 megs of 32-bit RAM, 1 meg of 16-bit RAM, 5 expansion slots (2 XT, 3 AT) and a 40 Mb HD. All that for $4699 (retail). Do you think the TT will prove competitive? Load a TT up with the 40Mb drive and 68882 and an extra meg of RAM, plus add at least 2 more slots to the cage and will the TT still come out as the best buy? I hope it will. -Craig W. Daymon P.S. I did not expect answers to ALL the questions in my previous message, I simply asked them as food for thought. The same goes for the second half of this post. Though I do feel the monitor question is answerable. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 57 Sat Jan 13, 1990 NEVIN-S at 14:36 EST I agree that the photo on the Feb issue of Start is a nice photo. But as a professional photographer let me warn you that what you see is not necessarily what you get. Look at the thing carefully and you will see the TT case makes very little sense. Ugly, and unfunctional. --Nevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 58 Sat Jan 13, 1990 TOWNS at 17:31 EST The TT case makes perfect sense to me and is very functional on my desk. As for your question on the multi-sync monitor, I do not know. It might work, but I am just not sure at this point. I don't have the equipment to try it. I think the TT will be competitive with other 030 based systems out there. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 59 Sat Jan 13, 1990 M.MCCANN2 at 19:24 EST One thing that might be indicative - is that 1280 x 960 or whatever mode interlaced, or not? I am not sure but I think all the 1024x768 modes are IBM 8514/A, and I THINK this is non interlaced (but I could be wrong, if someone else knows for sure let's hear it please). If this is truly "VGA like" then is the connector to the monitor a DB-15 but in a 9-pin size like standard VGA? If so, it MIGHT just take a multisync like the 3D directly... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 60 Sat Jan 13, 1990 J.ALLEN27 at 21:30 EST The 1280x960 output is on a different set of pins it is ECL level signal stuff and not just another timing variation of the RGB output. It is the same spec as the Moniterm so it can use the same monitor...which Atari sells (a lot of) in Europe. I would guess that the proto monitors are not Atari monitors but actually modified 3rd party ones and so you probably can get a multisybc to work...just like Wuztec does for the ST now. The 1024x768 stuff requires changes in the video circuit timing that is probably outside the bandwidth of the TT video circuit...as it is with the ST. So 640x480 on a multisync is doable...once you figure out what Atari did to deliberately differ from any standards :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 61 Mon Jan 15, 1990 TOWNS at 16:43 EST I don't have the Norton Utilities to do that. I will try to find PC Ditto II later this week. The transmission rate is part of the problem. And how many 8-bit machines would have anything to hook up to that would use Ethernet? -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 62 Fri Jan 19, 1990 MAS2743 at 03:25 CST If I recalled it right, someone here used to say "...TT board is flat and cramed full of electronic chips and thus can't squeeze it to make it smaller case.." Well, I guess I have a solution to squeeze it smaller (but no only to make it look thinner) by cutting the board it half and fold it to the other side like as if you are folding the sheet of paper in half. I guess this is known as "folded-sandwich" technique. The apparent may look more like a halfway between MAC II and Mac SE/30 Tower case version (I think). Or better yet, why can't Atari make those couple of brainy chips into a single custom IC chip? In my opinion, I wish Atari could do this way: Cut the TT board in half (reducing the number of electronic components for the second layer bread board). There, you have 2 smaller board sandwich with void (for cooling) between the two boards. Install Bus ribbon on one (or two) of its end. SImple! It is like squeeze the woman's waist in half and causing some of the surrounding skin to go up higher. Also, similliar concept as squeezeing the balloon in the middle, the rest extrude outwards in its side. Maybe this will help providing extra spaces for more VME Bus or drives? Well, it is just my suggestion and thought it might work out. <turning my head to Towns> TOWNS? Mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 63 Fri Jan 19, 1990 TOWNS [49ers!] at 19:09 EST Two problems: The chips that we are using now are pretty big as it is. Merging them into larger chips would cause numerous problems one of which would be time. We are trying to get this machine out as soon as we can. Changes like that would take alot of time. Two boards? Nice idea, but it increases the cost of the machine. As for the question about the user being able to open up this machine.. There are parts of the machine that are designed for this. The hard disk slot is designed to be easy to open and there is a slot in the back for VME cards that is easy to open. As for the machine itself, I would imagine it would stay consistant with Atari policy. However, what you do with your machine after the 90-day warranty period is up to you! <did I really say that? :-)> -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 64 Sun Jan 21, 1990 A.FRIESEN at 16:44 MST From my understanding, there isn't much room in that TT case, so any card that would go in the VME slot would have to hang out the back right? Or is there a big space in there for a card? Is that why there is that "platform" base-so the electronics went in there and there is mucho room in the "mega" case part for a VME card? Please answer this simple question Towns, I am very curious. Aric Friesen ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 65 Sun Jan 21, 1990 TOWNS [49ers!] at 21:37 EST Any such board would probably be a VME board. As for the availability of any graphics boards for TT, Atari has not announced this information and I really don't have any information on such a product. In the TT030/2 that I have, there is space in the case for one VME card. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 66 Tue Jan 23, 1990 S.NOAH at 00:56 PST Aric, I believe that I listed the dimensions of the standard half height VME card in this topic. From what I saw at Comdex, this looks like the configuration ( half height VME ) that Atari is going to go with. One nice thing about VME cards is that you don't have to open the case to install them, like you would on an IBM. All you need to do is remove the little metal plate from the back of the machine and slide the card into place. The connector is on the end that enters first and the end that you are holding as you slide it in has a plate that is screwed in the spot previously occupied by the filler plate. There realy should be enough room. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 67 Sun Feb 04, 1990 K.HEINRICHS [K.HEINRICHS] at 09:32 CST I have a few questions in regard to the monitor for the TT. First, can you tell me as far as the viewing size, how does the TT's monitor compare to that of the ST's. Also I understand that the TT's monitor is a modify VGA type or something. Not to knock Atari's monitor with out seeing it, is this going to limit the user to this monitor only, or is it simple enough that the modification can be done to monitors on the market today? The waiting for this machine is driving me nuts. Thanks in advance for your input. Has anyone tried Touch-Up and the hand scanner on the TT? K.HEINRICHS *S ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 68 Wed Feb 07, 1990 C.DAYMON at 19:55 EST I'm not sure we want ALL the 'BIG' names writing for the ST either. A friend of mine is a hard-core Mac owner (except she does want a Stacy Spectre GCR) and she claims few Mac owners have good things to say about Microsoft. (Based on problems working in harmony with other programs.) Still, Excel is by far a much more advanced product than 1-2-3. I'd just like to see some of the VERY exciting programs available in Germany available here. Like STeve, the ST wordprocessor with german-to-english and english-to-german translation, OCR support, graphics, multiple fonts and lots more. It's very expensive, but it would sure turn some US heads toward the ST just to see it on the market. Also, there is at least one bit-image editor with AUTO Trace available in Germany. (See the report from the Dusseldorf show in a past - I think August - issue of ST World-UK.) -Craig W. Daymon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 69 Wed Feb 07, 1990 R.COVERT1 at 18:29 MST to TOWNS: Have you heard anything about a new ST magazine called ST JOURNAL?? It is supposed to be out this spring and is geared towards professional applications. It is that type of support that sets us apart from IBM and Mac. ie. the ATari ST is down to one dinky little magazine STart, and a bi-monthly (or less often) Atari Explorer. As I have said before, I love my ST and would be thrilled to buy a TT if it would ever come out, and if there was a reason to buy it. But, w/o a multi-tasking multi-window OS I just can't see why the TT is worth replacing my Mega ST4 with. And Atari's lack of sales here in the USA is just horrible. So it is good news that Atari Corp is trying to change, and it is even better news that Bob Brodies has agreed to visit Phoenix on May 12 to attend our PHAST Club. I think that sending Bob around to the clubs is a VERY GOOD THING!!! And I do thank you and Atari Corp. So, just when is Atari Corp going to sell the TT?? And the CD/ROM?? As far as eraseable optical drives for the TT goes, as long as the TT comes with a true SCSI, they should be out almost as soon as the TT is. Sounds good. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 70 Thu Feb 08, 1990 TOWNS [John @ Atari] at 14:01 EST I haven't heard of such a magazine, but would like to see it happen. As for TT and CD-ROM.. I really don't know when these products will be released for sale. Atari doesn't purposely hold back products so I can state with confidence that we will sell them as soon as they are ready to go. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 71 Thu Feb 08, 1990 C.DAYMON at 20:00 EST That article I mentioned about the Dusseldorf show also mentioned a READ/WRITE CD that is available NOW for the ST. Remember, it was at a german show. Somewhere around $ 2k-$3k. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 72 Fri Feb 09, 1990 TOWNS [John @ Atari] at 20:44 EST I really don't have any new information on the configurations of TT. The software (i.e. TOS) is for the most part functioning just fine. The hardware is progressing as well. As for when to expect a US release or release in general. Sorry.. I don't have a date to give you. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 73 Sat Feb 24, 1990 P.MCCULLOUGH at 00:16 EST The continuing TT case controversy is a bit unnerving... a lot of Atari users who were hanging in there to see the TT have decided to leave based almost soley for the case design... For once, I hope Atari decides to rethink the TT case- and make the cheap TT without the hard drive... I have a MegaFile 30 already, and I don't do UNIX. :<) Also- a mini tower design would look and be great! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 74 Sat Feb 24, 1990 ICDINC at 08:12 EST It would also be nice if they allow the end users to purchase their own VGA or Multi-Synch monitor for the TT. That may be the case, I have not heard their plans yet. - TOM- ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 75 Sun Feb 25, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 23:59 PST I think that you will be able to use a standard VGA monitor, (I base this on the fact that using the PC4 or PC5 with the new PCC1424 VGA monitor, I was able to switch the PCC1424 for an NEC Multisync II with no problems, and the PCC1424 swapped out to other machines just fine). However, from reading the manual for the monitor (does anybody else actually read monitor manuals?) it seems that there's a 70 Hz mode built into the PCC1424 which the average DOS box doesn't take advantage of. I imagine that this would be for the ST compatible 'Duochrome' mode, or even the high-res color mode. So it seems to me that while you'd be able to use a multisyncing monitor on the TT, it would have to be able scan as high as 70 Hz, just as on the current ST's. Mind you, I have no guarantee that this 1424 monitor is the one destined for use with the TT: but I can't see why not. It's a nice monitor, and certainly capable of anything the TT could throw at it, I think. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 76 Mon Feb 26, 1990 TOWNS [John @ Atari] at 10:17 EST I don't think that will actually be the monitor for the TT, but it's probably close. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 77 Mon Mar 05, 1990 P.MCCULLOUGH at 22:55 EST Is the TT still in the design (or re-design?) stages or is it at or on itts way to the FCC for testing or what? Is the TT a "reality" or just an idea? I saw the picture on the START magazine an issue back... but it seems to me that something must be terribly wrong for us to be nearly thru the first quarter of 1990 with no sign of a product intended for delivery in the last quarter of 1989... Now I realize that this will probably spur denials, accusations,etc, but really, all I would like to know is whether the TT will be seen soon (Soon= 1 month) or not for a long time... (way into 1991)... PLEASE let at least the status of the TT be known since I am a prospective buyer, and would rather not wait for something that will never be... If the standard answer (You'll know when we do...) is all that can be offered, don't bother... I'll be checking out your competitors... Cheers, Paul ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 78 Wed Mar 07, 1990 DOUG.W at 21:47 EST Richard, I don't think it's unreasonable for people to talk about the TT based on the 9 TTs that were at Fall COMDEX. They might not have been finished, but they were far enough along that major changes would have cost major bucks. --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 79 Wed Mar 07, 1990 P.MCCULLOUGH at 23:49 EST Atari reps online have mentioned (rather sheepishly, I think) that the TTs seen in mags and their desktops, etc. aren't yet (or weren't yet) complete... I still get the feeling that the TT is years away... which means it probably shouldn't come out. Motorola will probably be up to the 68060 by the time the 68030 comes along... I hope all this time isn't being spent trying to make this machine UNIX compatible... everyone knows that the only TT buyers will be us ST and Mega owners who are still (Extremely patiently!) hanging in there... NO BODY WHO BUYS UNIX WILL BUY ANYTHING ATARI. Period. It may be painful to hear it... but its true. Therefore, Atari should play it smart and make us ST'ers want it... and that means they should pay attention to the posts in this topic which basicly boil down to: 1) Change the CPU box! Make it a tower (Full or half) 2) Put in a 1.44 meg floppy 1 3) Give it a standard VME architecture with MORE then one slot 4) Make it CPU upgradeable (ie. Faster 68030 CPUs) 5) Sell it both with and w/o built in hard drives 6) ADVERTISE! (This for R. Mariano...) 7) Give me one ASAP! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 80 Wed Mar 07, 1990 LEPULLEY at 22:00 MST Doug W., Any system that isn't going to be released until the 1st quarter of 91, has plenty of time for a lot of changes. (LL)oyd <if had been Atari instead of God that created the world, instead of "Let there be light", we'd still be hearing "Real soon now"> Pulley ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 81 Fri Mar 09, 1990 TOWNS [John @ Atari] at 13:11 EST The TT is a reality. I am typing on one right now. As soon as we can sell them, we will. Trust me. We aren't holding back the machine on purpose. We want to sell this machine to you as much as you want to buy them. However, we want to be sure that we are providing a stable machine that is up to our standards. This takes time.. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 82 Fri Mar 09, 1990 ICDINC at 15:57 EST As a developer and manufacturer of product less complex than the computer, I can really understand the delays. I challenge the critics out there to try and develop any product; to launch it and manufacture it, and ship in quantity .. ON SCHEDULE. I have not found a company yet that could do that consistently. A good example of this is the Insite Peripherals Floptical drive. They were taking cash orders 2 years ago and they are still not shipping. - TOM - ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 83 Fri Mar 09, 1990 LEPULLEY at 16:48 MST Tom, We're not talking about not shipping on schedule, we're talking about not shipping 6-18 months late...on almost every ST/STe/TT product. True, Insite might be 2 years late on their Floptical drive...but that's almost an entirely new technology, not just a re-hash of 2-4 year old technology. And it's one product, not EVERY product. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 84 Fri Mar 09, 1990 TOWNS [John @ Atari] at 20:05 EST I beg to differ. The STE/TT products are not simply re-hashes of old technology. They contain new and complex custom parts that require time to design and to make work properly. Not to mention that the STE and TT computers aren't like IBM machines. Most IBM machines can be build from parts that off the shelf. TT's and STE's simply aren't that way. As for delays.. I agree with Tom. Hardware is complex and there are a ton of things that can go wrong and delay you (one of the usual is outside vendors who mess up on parts or PCBs), and I don't evny the people who have to give date projections to Sam at all. It's VERY hard. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 85 Sat Mar 17, 1990 B.GRIER at 11:02 EST Gee I go away for a week and all this appears!! A simple question about the TT. Will I be able to order it with a math co-processor installed? Next question. Will I be able to specify either the 68881, or the 68882 math co- processor? My question last week regarding a 68010 in a STE provoked less thought than I thought it would especially from Jim Allen. The obvious reason to stick a 68010 in an STE is that I could create an less-expensive TT development system. I will promise everyone here that Jim's accelerator board will blow the doors off a 68010. But consider this, the stack frames for the 68010 are compatable with the 68030, and the 68040. The STE could be my answer to a TT development system. And remember that the 68010 has special move instructions that allow me to specify that I wish to address a co-processor address space. This would allow someone to simply add a floating-point co-processor without having to have knowledge of where ATARI meant it to be. Also I already have a board from ELTEC America that plugs into a VME card cage and supports just about any resolution you could imagine, 1280 x 1024 interest anyone? So let's get this topic back on track, not that I really have been on track, my 68010 STE idea and I are now going to the STE topic. Please do not bash the 16-Mhz 68030 until you have used one. More may be better, but pricing is logrithimic not linear. Do not believe me, then start pricing plain 8-Mhz 68000s and 16-Mhz 68000s without the advantage of Jim's accelerator board. If you wish to discuss these ideas with me I am normally listening to 21.350 USB. Computers and amateur radio what a perfect life!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 86 Sat Mar 17, 1990 G.MON2 at 12:20 EST Just out of curosity, does the TT have the same additional 15-pin joysticks as the STe? Also, how is the new graphics modes of the TT mapped in memory? Do they use the same interleaved bit-plane approach? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 87 Mon Mar 19, 1990 TOWNS [John @ Atari] at 22:03 EST Research and Development is a function of Atari Technology Corp., a subsidiary of Atari Corporation. The TT does not have the 15 pin Analog Joystick Ports that the STE has. The TT will have a math coprocessor as an option. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 88 Thu Mar 22, 1990 P.MCCULLOUGH at 00:16 EST Will the TT be at the Anaheim show? Not that I'll be there, but my nephew who writes software for the Sun computers is very interested in seeing the TT- his first major computer was a 1040ST, and he may be interested in writing for the TT someday. Yes, the show will be within driving distance for him. Me? I'm stuck here on the east coast! Any long range plans for Atari to attend WAACE in October? Maybe with the TT? (Leave the STE at home, instead!) :) Paul ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 89 Thu Mar 22, 1990 TOWNS [John @ Atari] at 04:14 EST I am not sure whether or not there will be a TT at the WOA. I certainly hope we will be able to show one, but I just can't give you a yes or no answer right now. Bob Brodie, can you shed some light on this one? As for TT release dates.. I think you all know how I feel about release dates. I hate them. I avoid giving them out at all costs. The best I can tell you is that as soon as we have a machine that is ready to ship, you will see it. -- John PS. And to be honest, I really don't know what the timeframe is for the TT release to the US. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 90 Thu Mar 22, 1990 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 06:41 EST A discussion on the TT and the WOA show can be found in Category 11 as always. :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 91 Sun Mar 25, 1990 B.GRIER at 09:25 EST I really hate to do this but... The TT is reported to contain a VME interface. Well the real question is what level of VME will be supported? 24 address and 16 data, 32 address and 32 data? What is the largest card the case will hold, 3U, 6U, 9U, or Sun's wierd card size? I know these questions do not fit with the general whining about ___ vs Atari but I don't care. I have a use for the TT and I intend to be ready to take full advantage of the machine when it arrives, even if my local Atari dealer only wants to sell software!!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 92 Sun Mar 25, 1990 J.ALLEN27 at 12:56 EST Well, they say the TT02 will use the 24/16 VME in a 6U card size. The last time I plugged something into the SUN 3/280 it was a standard 9U? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 93 Sun Mar 25, 1990 TOWNS [John @ Atari] at 14:28 EST I believe Jim is correct. The size is commonly referred to as the Eurocard size. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 94 Tue Mar 27, 1990 R.IRVINE at 07:14 PST I was under the impression that the TT/02 had a 3U VME card slot, not 6U. The panel space required for a 3U is about 5 inches and for the 6U it is about 10 inches. All of you with TT's <grin>, go get your rulers out. The VME specification calls out two card sizes, 3U x 160mm and 6U x 160mm. There are also several non-standard sizes, such as the SUN 9U cards, and others that are 6U x 220mm. They are all considered "Eurocards". Probably 90- 95% of the commercially available VME cards are in the 6U x 160mm format. There is a fair amount of circuitry involved in interfacing a card to the VME bus; with the 3U form factor this eats up a high percentage of the board space, leaving limited space for the intended function of the board. Other rumored features (limitations) of the TT/02 VME slot is that it only implements the P1 connector (24 address/16 data bits) and that it does not support alternate bus masters. I consider the card size to be the most serious limitation, since most of the more "interesting" VME boards are only available in the 6U or larger form factors. The available 3U card functions are fairly limited. The lack of alternate bus master support would be a problem with many cards. Many of the high performance cards have onboard processors or DMA cabability and need to take over the bus for access to the main (TT) memory. The A24/D16 bus width is a less serious limitation since most 32 bit cards can also communicate over a 16 bit bus, although slower. While the TT/02 will have an "industry standard" VME slot, the limitations of its implementation will not give the TT user many more expansion options than are available today with the Mega expansion slot. Ray Irvine ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 95 Sat Mar 31, 1990 MRAYMOND at 09:10 CST Interesting note: Got my copy of PCWEEK Friday and scanned it. (I always read the rumor column first!) Anyway, the rumor column has a paragraph about the Hanover fair, and noted that Atari demonstrated the TT running Unix.... aparently Atari caught someone's notice, since this is the first I have ever seen it mentioned in this Mag. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 96 Sat Apr 07, 1990 L.HARRIS at 21:29 PDT Well I have seen the famous Atari TT. And all I have to say is, "I am impressed." The color display was wonderful. The small demo that I saw did showed me the potential of the TT. I was very disapointed with two aspects of the TT. First was the estimated price of three grand. This was the cheap model (with a hard disk). This put the TT very close to the price level of the big boys (IBM, Apple...and Amiga?). I though Atari was suppose to be power without the price anyway. At this price level the consumer will not tolerate Atari's poor PR. Nor will the consumer tolerate all the problems Atari is having with the USA market. If Atari is serious about the TT, then they better get their marketing act together. I was really distressed by the projected release date of the latter part of the year or maybe the fall of the year. That seems more like 1990 before I can get one into my house. All in all I did like the TT. Did I like it enough to shell out $3000.00 for it? Well I would like to see the TT do more than run demo's before I bought one. Leon ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 97 Sat Apr 21, 1990 MAS2743 [mas2743] at 03:30 CDT I decided to post this in the TT topic because I find this somewhat uncomfortable or even threatening to Atari, please read on: I heard within in my block mentioning about Darius Computers, Inc. who is claiming that Darius computer (in the form of strange laptop- desktop combo design) will knock down the Atari TT/032 workstation in the next Germany show (!) Whether this rumor is something about Darius as a ST-clone workstation or not, we would like to verify this rumor. We don't want to wind up another false facts or threaten facts.... ALso, another guy thinks he saw Darius computer in the back of Bytes magazines (glossy brown color page, he recalled). Also, this Darius computer has a black-magnesium color - just like the NeXT Computer but only smaller and sleekier (he said more like stealth-looking, especially its exotic twisted-LCD screen - like as it if it is floating!) Strange indeed in his own words.... But I, fear not, I will check this Byte Magazine and other magazines about Darius stuffs....(oooh, sounds like a eerie name from Air Force or from Alpha Centari's vicinity!) Mike *s ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 98 Sat Apr 21, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 21:19 PDT Mike, the Darius line of computers is from Mission Cyrus; they are Intel '386 based IBM compatibles. Very NICE, very SEXY compatibles, but really not anything at all like a TT or an ST. I know, I've played with one, as my company has a dealership. BTW they come standard with Sony Trinitron monitors, IDE controllers, and a whole bunch of other neat stuff. The initial boot sequence is worth travelling to see! And the Black Monolith case is the file server model: there are also desktop and laptop 386's: the laptop has a built-in gray-scale VGA screen (sorry, I haven't seen it, just heard about it), a fax modem, and an LQ inkjet printer. I guess it's closer to a portable. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 99 Sun Apr 22, 1990 MAS2743 [mas2743] at 00:24 CDT Maybe you could start a topic on it....well, alright, let me ask you my last question about Darius line of computers: What makes Darius so special that TT does NOT have (ie. features, price)? Just curious and I know sorry it is not TT (whew!) but I WISH TT is a similiar design like Darius....oh well... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 100 Mon Apr 23, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 22:16 PDT What does an IBM PS/2 Model 70 have that the TT does not? Same question. The DARIUS is an IBM-compatible computer. A nice one. An almost-enough-to- tempt- me-away-from-my-ST one. But not quite. What it DOES have that you'd be interested in is a unique box design. I'm not the DOS specialist where I work, but the TOS specialist (as if you couldn't tell) so I don't know much about it, but one thing I noticed is that the Darius has NO FAN. It uses cooling fins. This fits into Mission Electronics background as a high-end hi-fidelity audio company. (yes, it's the same Mission). It's very QUIET. (the technical term for this type of heat transfer escapes me momentarily) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 101 Tue Apr 24, 1990 S.NOAH at 00:05 PDT Ron, could the term you are looking for be convection ? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 102 Wed Apr 25, 1990 S.WHITNEY [Steve W.] at 01:59 PDT Hey, folks! Commodore anounced their A3000 today and it looks like the TT will comete well if it's released in time and if the price is right... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 103 Wed Apr 25, 1990 NEVIN-S at 21:02 EDT Yes, the Amiga 3000 also made the cover of Byte magazine... --Nevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 104 Wed Apr 25, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 20:33 PDT I doubt the TT will make the cover of Byte. JP's pretty down on the ST these days. Convection. Of course. Naturally, I remembered the term as soon as I typed 'bye'. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 105 Wed Apr 25, 1990 S.NOAH at 22:11 PDT I'm surprised that the Amiga made the cover of Byte ! As for the ST given the current level of support in this country we might just see one of the BBC micros on the cover of BYTE first. Oh well, maybe that will change this year, it has to some time.. right ? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 106 Thu Apr 26, 1990 C.DAYMON at 19:18 EDT I'm probably one of a minority that wasn't particularily upset by the style of the TT case, but that has changed. I just received my annual report and in it was a picture of the TT with the Atari monitor that would go with it. The base of the monitor extends over the larger portion of the TT case that it is sitting on. This is just plain poor planning! It looks STUPID and does not give the impression that Atari has put much thought into the machine when such simple, small details are missed. Really poor guys. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 107 Thu Apr 26, 1990 J.LYONS11 at 20:18 CDT On page 6 of the latest INFOWORLD, Commodore says they will be selling the Amiga 3000 in July. Two meg RAM/40 meg HD version going for around $4K, I think it said. Where's my TT?!? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 108 Thu Apr 26, 1990 J.ALLEN27 at 23:17 EDT Looks like the TT just might kick some Amiga butt...certain 3rd parties have some tricks up their sleves :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 109 Thu Apr 26, 1990 R.GRANT11 [Ron Grant] at 22:40 PDT Ooh, ah, ooh. Is this Jim (Mr. Tantalizing) Allen doing it to us again? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 110 Fri Apr 27, 1990 MAS2743 [mas2743] at 03:13 CDT But, I personally don't like the AmigaDOS inside that "densely-packed markings" on the window. GEM is a really nice and subtle to be on the screen given the proper resoluion and also GEM reminds me of something like X- windows....and that will be possible on TT/Unix version just as Germany have shown to the public (I think). The only way to beat Amiga video advancements is to have a multiple PIP's display controller (like I mentioned here before about Nolan Bushnell exotic video window devices for the Macworld..can't recall that box again...). I can feel it but it has to arrive programmers hand first before Amiga gets into the eyes of new customers/pros/white-collarmen. Hey, why not have a double-stacked Mega box to perform a single TT workstation. For example, bottome Mega-designed case box will do the actual 68030 CPU timings and all chipus timing and the second Mega- designed case box will do VMEBussie (let us called TT/VME for the top box). Also, it is cooler! What do you think of my conceptual TT design? Mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 111 Tue May 01, 1990 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 18:31 EDT The comparison topic has now been moved to Category 18 Topic 22. Please keep this strictly for Atari TT information, ideas etc ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 112 Wed May 02, 1990 S.WHITNEY [Steve W.] at 01:45 PDT Well then, see you in a few months, Darlah. :-( ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 113 Thu May 03, 1990 MAS2743 [mas2743] at 03:47 CDT What is the decibel level for the fan inside TT workstation (anykind)? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 114 Thu May 03, 1990 TOWNS [John @ Atari] at 14:02 EDT There are two fans in the TT and I am not sure what the decibel level is for these fans. I have no way to measure it. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 115 Thu May 03, 1990 DERRICK at 23:48 EDT Two fans and 1 slot. So we still have to chop the mother board up for expansion, shame! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 116 Fri May 04, 1990 J.ALLEN27 at 00:24 EDT There are actually companies that sell VME expansion cabinets and connections...so we can have what ever our wallets can justify :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 117 Fri May 04, 1990 BREHBOCK at 00:09 CDT Jim, can my wallet say 40Mhz? :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 118 Fri May 04, 1990 MAS2743 [mas2743] at 02:58 CDT But.....can TT acts as like a video file server? If you don't know what that means, you better catch up with the world of desktop workstation in the field of computer graphics.....shame! <waving forefinger> ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 119 Fri May 04, 1990 C.DAYMON at 20:40 EDT At my last job, we had designed and were using a portable Unix V.3 diagnostic computer. It had 1 VME slot. There was also a second unit that worked with the first via a bus repeater. The second unit was essentially a card cage with about 8 slots and a tape back-up. Anyway, 1 VME slot is NOT the same as 1 slot in a Mega. Though, it would be nice if it was a 6U slot and not a 3U slot. (My terminology may be off, but it is the smaller VME.) -Craig W. Daymon P.S. That portable was designed for the Navy and portable to the Navy was about 45 pounds. Still, as a diagnostics computer it beats having to use a VAX. (90 pounds total for both units.) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 120 Sat May 05, 1990 P.MCCULLOUGH at 01:43 EDT Question to Atari: According to CPU(ST)-REPORT this week (#418), there was an announcement that the TT had passed FCC certification... is this true? If so, that must be the fastest certification for an Atari product ever! (I tend to doubt this really occurred since Atari would be all over GEnie proclaiming the fact- TOWNS would probably be right behind BRODIE in posting the fact- ) Is it any colder in Hades? Is there any closer idea as to when the TT tower may come to be? Also, is there still discussion of a 68040 TT? (TT040/2?) Question to Tech Types who may know: From the data available on the TT now, will the TT be easily upgraded to 33MHz (or is that 32MHz?) or 25MHz. I'm talking about a 68030-25MHz. Would it have to be piggy-backed like TURBO-16 in the ST, or could the CPUs just be traded? Would the rest of the system still crawl at 16MHz- ie. Video, TOS, DRAM, etc.? By the way, the TT/FCC announcement can be found in CPU-REPORT (418) under an article about the Rochester (?) Institute of Technology... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 121 Sat May 05, 1990 S.NOAH at 00:20 PDT Here is one out of left field... lets see if anyone can answer it: Can the TT run any of the STe demos that have been uploaded lately ? I'm just curious since there seems to be a little overlap in some of the listed specs. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 122 Sat May 05, 1990 JEFF.W [RTC Sysop] at 04:50 EDT What's this about Turbo-16 being piggy-backed? The original 68000 is removed, with Turbo-16's 16Mz 68000 replacing it. Or did my technician goof up my installation? <grin> ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 123 Sat May 05, 1990 D.ANDERSON22 [FastTech Rep] at 12:29 EDT No, Jeff, your technician didn't goof. T16 isn't piggy-backed, it's socketed. Whole different ballgame. ;^) -Dave ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 124 Sat May 05, 1990 J.ALLEN27 at 12:44 EDT As with any 68030 computer, you will be able to replace the 16Mhz 68030 chip with a board having a faster 68030 chip and cache ram. The sky is the limit on such things...as long as the 68030 is in a socket of course. Same thing goes for the 68882 chip. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 125 Sat May 05, 1990 OUTRIDER [Terry May] at 11:20 PDT Not to discredit CPU NewsWire, but I assumed they confused the STE passing of the FCC with that of the TT. It has been my understanding that the TT was still under development, and hadn't even been _submitted_ to the FCC. Of course, I'll jump for joy if CPU NewsWire was dead-on. :^) After all, an FCC passing in May means there's at least a fair chance of it shipping in the same year. ...Terry ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 126 Sat May 05, 1990 ICDINC at 23:41 EDT I think the STE passed over 1 month ago. I hope the TT has now passed. This is usually something that is done months before release. - TOM - ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 127 Sun May 06, 1990 ST-REPORT [CPU Report] at 13:44 EDT P.MCCULLOUGH, Atari Germany's talked about developing a 68040-based TT, but it probably won't be coming out until the 68040's price is lower.... S.NOAH, If the STe demo doesn't use any of the features specific to the STe blitter chip, then it should run on the TT.... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 128 Sun May 06, 1990 B.PISCHKE at 14:56 EDT Is it true that Atari Can. will be having a press conference on June 4 and will release the TT about a month after? Can someone from Atari Can. (or even Atari US.) confirm this? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 129 Sun May 06, 1990 MAS2743 [mas2743] at 16:25 CDT is it true that Atari Canada is receiving a formal letter from MacNeal- Schwindler Corp., a company famous for 3D finite-element analysis solid modeling for enginneer designer to develop prototype on the screen rather than plastic/clay molds???? If so, it would nice to see it on the TT. Also, like other workstation platforms, this software can let the user to pick up the "vertex-points" of the polygon or objects to see if there is any stress in the materials until the the software shows no sign of stress. It would be interesing to see what is the outcome of the design as a final product. Interesting....unless it is a rumor from certain gee-whiz bbs....<sad face> Mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 130 Mon May 07, 1990 TOWNS [John @ Atari] at 02:34 EDT To be honest, I am not sure if the TT has passed FCC testing yet. I know that we have been working on it. As for Atari Germany and the 68040.. please be aware that Atari Germany is a sales/marketing organization for the Federal Republic of Germany. They are not a Research and Design Organization. R&D is based and managed directly in Sunnyvale. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 131 Mon May 07, 1990 ST.REPORT [Ralph] at 07:53 EDT You mean, Atari Germany is an arm of the German Gov't?? >>>"please be aware that Atari Germany is a sales/marketing organization for the Federal Republic of Germany." If they are not R&D why the GERMAN TOS? OR the new souped up OS now spoken of?? hmmmmmm ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 132 Mon May 07, 1990 JEFF.W [RTC Sysop] at 12:47 EDT John didn't mean Atari Germany is associated with the government there. Perhaps using the word "in", instead of "for", would have made this clearer. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 133 Mon May 07, 1990 TOWNS [John @ Atari] at 13:14 EDT You missed my point, Ralph. Atari Germany is the sales/marketing organization for Atari in the Federal Republic of Germany. All Development of _any_ version of TOS is done here in Sunnyvale by a number of the people you see online. Souped up OS? -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 134 Mon May 07, 1990 ST.REPORT [Ralph] at 15:01 EDT Sorry John I repeated the way I "read" it ... I am very well aware of the fact that Atari GERMANY is not an arm of the gov't. You have a very "unique" way of expressing yourself. I can't find it in my nservative heart to think that the German development is done soley in Sunnyvale................... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 135 Mon May 07, 1990 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 16:40 EDT Pat, The TT is at the FCC for certification right now. That's the hardware end of it. We're still addressing a few software issues on the TT now. That's what I told the guys at Rochest. Sorry if you got too excited. :) B.Pischke- Sorry, I don't know anything about that. You could always give them a call and ask *them* about it. I don't think they have anyone online here on GEnie (although I'm workin' on it!). Their phone number is 416-479- 1266. Or you could fax them at 416-479-1439. The general manager is Geoff Earle, tell 'em I said hi!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 136 Mon May 07, 1990 JEFF.W [RTC Sysop] at 17:09 EDT Since Julius left Atari Canada to work for ISD, I don't recall seeing anyone from Atari Canada online here. Not a bad idea though! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 137 Mon May 07, 1990 B.PISCHKE at 18:53 EDT Bob Brodie- Thanks. I'll call them and see. I think they should have people on-line though. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 138 Mon May 07, 1990 OUTRIDER [Terry May] at 19:14 PDT Bob... How long has the FCC had the TT? ...Terry ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 139 Mon May 07, 1990 T.HARPER4 at 22:02 CDT Am I right that the TT is not shipping anywhere right now, including Europe? That would mean that the TT isn't ready to ship even if it had passed FCC. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 140 Tue May 08, 1990 ICDINC at 08:28 EDT Even if the TT passes FCC there are still software problems to work out I would guess. The hardware may be well done but an OS of this complexity should take many hours of debugging. - TOM - ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 141 Tue May 08, 1990 UNICORNPUB at 10:10 EDT Tom, My feeling (for what that's worth :) ) is it'd be great to get the TT through FCC so that by the time it's ready to ship, the software would be ready. It seems it's several months from FCC certification to actual dealer release. There's many hours in several months! :) Pattie Rayl (Atari Interface Magazine) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 142 Tue May 08, 1990 TOWNS [John @ Atari] at 12:34 EDT Hate to disappoint you, Ralph. TOS Operating System Development is done exclusively in Sunnyvale, CA by the group of people I work with. If you don't believe me, call up your good friend Leonard Tramiel and verify it. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 143 Tue May 08, 1990 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 13:31 EDT T.Harper- Your correct, it is not shipping any where in the world. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 144 Tue May 08, 1990 ST.REPORT [Ralph] at 13:37 EDT Ok oh high exaulted one.... John you are 100% right and the folks in UK and ther continent are a pack of liars... gimme a break! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 145 Tue May 08, 1990 ICDINC at 17:34 EDT Ralph, There may be TOS development in other parts of the world but it is being done as an unauthorized hack. I would be really surprised if Atari let that development happen on the outside. - TOM - ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 146 Tue May 08, 1990 ST-REPORT [CPU Report] at 18:40 EDT ICDINC, Atari UK hired Unisoft Inc. (a British firm who also did Apple Unix for the Mac II) to write the TT's Unix, and both Atari UK and Atari Germany have designed Atari products (such as the TT), so Sunnyvale doesn't have to do all Atari development.. TOWNS, By the way, since you are already using a 68030 TT, and have all of the Software Development tools available for it, could you run the Dhrystone benchmark on it so "the rest of us" can have an inkling of the TT's processing capability? I think Lenny may have a copy of it, so.... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 147 Tue May 08, 1990 TOWNS [John @ Atari] at 21:02 EDT First, his name is _Leonard_. Second, All development on the TOS Operating System is done here in Sunnyvale, CA. Period! I know this because I build final versions of TOS for release to manufacturing. I also know this because I am part of a VERY small group of people who even have access to the sources to build the Operating System. As for Atari Hardware Development, this is done throughout various locations around the world. I am not calling Atari Germany or Atari UK liars. But, they do not do Operating System work at all. It's all done here for TOS. UNIX is a completely different issue entirely. -- John PS. The TT was designed here in the USA. Not in England, Germany, or Luxembourg. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 148 Tue May 08, 1990 ICDINC at 21:13 EDT Ralph, What John said. ;-) - TOM - ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 149 Tue May 08, 1990 S.WHITNEY [Steve W.] at 20:17 PDT Do you guys know if the 'Quick ST' benchmark that was run on teh TT was running in fast RAm or chip RAM? Could make a big difference since the fast RAM can do burst mode! --Steve ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 150 Wed May 09, 1990 BREHBOCK at 01:25 CDT Ralph, I've never given much credence to ST-REPORT. IMHO, it has always been for the lack of a better word, electronic trash. Your "Lenny" remarks and the other past comments have cut your crediblitly down to nothing. (Flame off :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 152 Wed May 09, 1990 ST.REPORT [Ralph] at 11:29 EDT First things first...., Please allow me to apologize for my young collegue's ungracious slip of the keyboard in not addressing Leonard by his proper name. I am confident that, in the future, Michael Arthur will not allow this oversight to occur again. W.E. Rehbock, I have no problem with your disliking or not reading STReport, but to resort to childish name calling? Please.... Let's at least be gentlemen. Tom....., Go to your room! :-) In closing, I believe that Micheal Arthur did indeed point out certain points of information that say quite a bit about development in other parts of the world being done for Atari. And I quote; "Atari UK hired Unisoft Inc. (a British firm who also did Apple Unix for the Mac II) to write the TT's Unix, and both Atari UK and Atari Germany have designed Atari products (such as the TT), so Sunnyvale doesn't have to do all Atari development.." If M. Arthur is not quite right in his mentioning the TT, then he stands corrected, he should have mentioned the ATW, the Portfolio and a virtual plethora of better than excellent software. As far as Mr. Townsend's post #147 relating to him being the last individual to "touch" TOS as its on the way out the door. I feel much better now knowing the entire world, as far as TOS is concerned, is in such capable hands. As an aside, I always thought that UNIX was an operating system too. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 153 Wed May 09, 1990 TOWNS [John @ Atari] at 11:54 EDT Sure, Ralph. UNIX is an Operating System and a really good one at that. However, we were talking about things like a "Souped-up TOS from Germany" and TOS Development. TOS and UNIX are entirely two different issues and are handled by different groups within our company. As for your comments on my handling TOS on the way out the door, thanks. I do my best to make sure this happens as smoothly as possible. And please read my message.. I stated that Atari development is done throughout the world. However, TOS Operating System development is done here in Sunnyvale. Period. No one else has the source code to do anything to TOS. If they are modifying the Operating System, then they are doing so without our knowledge and this is not support by Atari. I hope this is beginning to become clearer. My only point is that Germany can't come out with it's own "Souped-up TOS" because we would have to make such a beast here. And if we make it, it will go to all of the countries, not just Germany. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 154 Wed May 09, 1990 ICDINC at 18:39 EDT Ralph, Michael Arthur is on GEnie? Is he the guy who writes Dream Computer in your magazine? IF so, I would like to talk to him. He seems to be uninformed in many areas and could use some help with specs and prices. - TOM - ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 155 Wed May 09, 1990 TOWNS [John @ Atari] at 18:45 EDT Michael Arthur uses the ST-REPORT Account. He usually makes his 'nickname' [CPU Report] and Ralph uses [Ralph]. You can also tell them apart by the style of message as well. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 156 Wed May 09, 1990 ST.REPORT [Ralph] at 19:40 EDT TOM... At times you are "oh so helpfull!" Go back to your room! :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 157 Wed May 09, 1990 J.ALLEN27 at 23:54 EDT Both the 68020 TOSs and "Soupedup TOS" in Germany are not the product of Atari. Atari has just chosen NOT to prosecute the parties involved for copyright infringement :-) See sometimes Atari is a very freindly company. Nite Ralph, nite Tom, nite John, nite Micheal. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 160 Thu May 10, 1990 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 13:21 EDT Ralph, C'mon, let Tom help you out! All you'll have to do is give Michael a calling card to call Illinois with, so he won't run up his phone bill!!! Just be careful that Tom doesn't start trying to put his own byline in the stuff....(just kidding gang, keep the flamethrowers on low!!) Morning, Jim! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 161 Thu May 10, 1990 TOWNS [John @ Atari] at 14:14 EDT Jim: <grin> ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 162 Thu May 10, 1990 ST.REPORT [Ralph] at 19:31 EDT Thanks Jim... at least I wasn't loosing it. :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 163 Thu May 10, 1990 GORDON at 22:38 EDT All this about who and whom does the operating system???? Wow ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 164 Fri May 11, 1990 TOWNS [John @ Atari] at 23:48 EDT I know, Gordon.. Sorry! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 165 Sun May 13, 1990 N.MOSER at 10:33 EDT Does any one know when we will be able to purchase an Atari TT? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 166 Sun May 13, 1990 MAS2743 [mas2743] at 23:14 CDT <with a serious look on my face> Then should I delete my "LIVE_VIDEO" file? I thought you guys pass it around to Datel or whoever has TT to try out with Parsec board. Or maybe I should ask, is my "LIVE_VIDEO.TXT" board possible on TT? No? Then, I am afraid that TT doesn't sound like a workstation after all. Right? Wrong? in my theory? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 167 Sun May 13, 1990 MAS2743 [mas2743] at 23:39 CDT Sorry, I just read email from Sandy and she has informed me that she moved my "LIVE_VIDEO.TXT" to Cat 18, Topic 2 (Other Computer System). Really, "LIVE_VIDEO.TXT" has nothing to do with "other computer system" but it is more like hardware board for particular workstation. I would like for you guys, the graphics board vendors in the TT arena or R&D, to take a look at it and tell me what do you think of this 24-bit video board in a live video performance. It think it is really neat to have it but someone would have to somehow design it for the TT and keep the cost down (as if to compete them).... If nobody likes, not a single from OOps, I mean if nobody is interest in it, I might delete my message for good because it leads me to think that TT might not work with it. Any questions about this board, please reply in Cat 18, Topic 2. Not here! Now back to TT world. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 168 Mon May 14, 1990 ST-REPORT [CPU Report] at 16:50 EDT N.MOSER, Europe, Australia, etc., could get 68030 TTs before June.... Of course, if Motorola doesn't manufacture any more 68030s then the US will probably never see them. Hopefully something good will come out of the Motorola/Hitachi Suit.... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 169 Tue May 15, 1990 J.ALLEN27 at 00:45 EDT Mike, the law suit is meaningless as to 030 production. Stop worrying. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 170 Tue May 15, 1990 TOWNS [John @ Atari] at 12:07 EDT There are TOO many computers on the market already that use the 68030 for Motorola to stop making the 030. Not to mention, who is going to turn their nose up at a $3 BILLION dollar a year product?! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 171 Tue May 15, 1990 ST-REPORT [CPU Report] at 18:43 EDT TOWNS, Hitachi recently won a patent infringement suit against Motorola, saying that the 68030 chip's MMU infringes on a patent held by Hitachi. The judge in that case said that Motorola could not sell 68030 chips until the year 2004, but he recently lifted that ban temporarily.... If the ban goes into effect again, then it won't be a matter of Motorola "turning up its nose at a $3 billion dollar a year product?, but it will be illegal for Motorola to sell them. I did not imply that Motorola was ignoring the 68030 market, so there is no need to get agitated.... J.ALLEN27, So the lawsuit ruling doesn't affect the status of 68030 manufacturing? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 172 Wed May 16, 1990 J.ALLEN27 at 00:10 EDT Mike, the point the judge was making is that the matter didn't belong in court, and that both companies shold grow up. That's all, nobody is going to shut down 030 manufacturing. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 173 Wed May 16, 1990 TOWNS [John @ Atari] at 11:56 EDT No one is agitated.. but, from what I have read in the industry press.. you are wrong. Jim's version of the truth (Hi Jim! <grin>) is the one I and the San Jose Mercury News are familar with. Your 2004 comment is the first time I have heard that one.. The bottom line: There are no worries about 68030 supply. The product is simply too important to the industry to be banned from production. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 174 Wed May 16, 1990 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 14:07 EDT Michael, I second what Jim said! :-) What your missing is that while Hitachi won a judgement against Motorola, Motorola won a judgement against them for multi million $$$$$$ That's how the judge is trying to get them BOTH out of the courts, and into a settlement. BTW, on what do you base your statement that Europe and Australia might get the TT before June? Not flamming, just honestly asking. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 178 Wed May 16, 1990 ST-REPORT [CPU Report] at 21:57 EDT BOB-BRODIE, Some people at Atari Australia had stated (back in March or April) that Australia was going to be getting TTs in May or June. Also, I mentioned that the possibility of this occurring was still there.... TOWNS, On March 30, 1990, U.S. District Court Judge Lucius Bunton temporarily lifted a ban on sales of the 68030 microprocessor (he had banned 68030 sales when Hitachi won its lawsuit against Motorola), pending an appeal of the case by Motorola. The reason that Judge Lucius Bunton originally forbade Motorola to sell the 68030 microprocessor for the duration of Hitachi's patents (read: 2004) was because he originally ruled that the 68030's MMU infringed on one of Hitachi's patents... In giving his verdicts in the cases that Motorola and Hitachi had filed against each other, the Judge admonished both companies for their failure to communicate and settle their differences out of court.... The above is both what has been "reported in the industry news", and what I have maintained from the first. Also, while it seems apparent that the statements that I and J.ALLEN27 made are not necessarily incompatible, your scintillating viewpoints concerning the above are noted.... Also, while I also hope that Motorola and Hitachi will resolve this lawsuit without harm to the 68030's supply, it would seem apparent that if they don't come to such a "happy ending", and if Judge does not rule in Motorola's favor in their appeal and reinsitututes the ban, that Motorola will be forbidden to sell the 68030. Would this not seem like a rational assertion? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 179 Thu May 17, 1990 J.ALLEN27 at 01:11 EDT Well, I should mention that the 030 is so important to the US computer industry that Congress would actually settle Hatachi's widget if the problem persists. I really believe Motorola can put enough pressure on to get a law passed making them right :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 180 Thu May 17, 1990 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 01:25 EDT Michael, On the surface, it does seem like a fair assertion, and a reasonable concern. But when you read the whole opinion, it smacks much more of "Get out of here, and settle this yourselves. Here's a little incentive to help BOTH of you get to the table." Again, not trying to flame you at all on the TT shipping to Australia. Just trying to discern where the info was coming from. I highly doubt that they will be there then. Although anything is possible. Jim, interesting idea. Now, if the Congress could only get it done it time. They might have better luck wading thru the courts!! Might be faster!!!!! regards, Bob ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 181 Thu May 17, 1990 DOUG.W at 03:17 EDT If the judge reinstated the 68030 ban (enforcably), I suspect Motorola could come up with a bunch of cash in a hurry to settle at least temporarily. --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 182 Thu May 17, 1990 OUTRIDER [Terry May] at 03:34 PDT CPU Report... Big deal -- Atari U.S. was stating back in November that we would be getting the TT in the 1st quarter of 1990. Obviously, it's all talk until the machines hit the stores. ...Terry ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 183 Thu May 17, 1990 J.ALLEN27 at 13:34 EDT I would suspect Motorola could resort to buying Hatachi if it came down to life or death. A $48 billion company flush with cash is not something you want mad at you. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 184 Fri May 18, 1990 BREHBOCK at 07:06 CDT Jim, my, you've been in fine form lately :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 185 Fri May 18, 1990 TOWNS [John @ Atari] at 13:51 EDT Remember though, Jim.. Hitachi is NOT a small company by any means. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 186 Fri May 18, 1990 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 18:10 EDT I still LIKE the idea though. "So, ya wanna play rough, eh! OK, we're just gonna have to buy you, that should solve any future problems!!!" Yes indeed, Jim! You *have* been in fine form lately!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 187 Sat May 19, 1990 J.ALLEN27 at 00:15 EDT Jim Allen...developer/entertainer...:-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 188 Sat May 19, 1990 BREHBOCK at 00:08 CDT Could we have a Wednesday night conference where Jim just does stand-up? Ooooo...what-a-crowd :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 189 Sat May 19, 1990 MAS2743 [mas2743] at 02:20 CDT I am concern how does Parsec board work with TT up to now? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 190 Sat May 19, 1990 P.MCCULLOUGH at 12:14 EDT If the TT030 has a cartridge port, and it is compatible with ST cartridges ... then the ParSec should work on the TT. Better still, perhaps Elm Tech will make a VME card featuring the ParSec hardware...hmmmm? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 191 Sun May 20, 1990 J.ALLEN27 at 00:36 EDT I think they could do even better witha vme card. Nuck, nuck, nuck :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 192 Mon May 21, 1990 J.AYO [Coconut Joe] at 00:37 EDT Boy this message base is turning into, like a lo cal BBS with over-zealous kids invent ing a series of a pack of lies about Atari Europe and then repeating it so much, that they begin to believe it! First off on the Parseq board.... Have you seen the specs on the TT itself? It seems the TT will blow out the parseq board all by itself with no help at all ! You know how the Amiga can show 4096 colors in 640 X 400 mode but it works itself to eath with no animation or time to do anything else to show that picture.... the TT seems will easily show 4096 colors in 640 X 480 and still have phenominal animating, sound and gaming abilities . John Towns : I also happen to have an Amiga along with ST. While I personally rank Amiga as being "tZ THE most difficult" to use computer since CPM , some tricks are nice in multitasking... is that being included in the TT? I have no desire for full blown multitasking, but like when you copy programs , instead of being stopped with a busy bee mouse, it is nice to be able to resize windows and stmaybe s et up a next series of copies or even doup ble click on the next program to run. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 194 Mon May 21, 1990 ISD2 [Julius O.] at 23:10 EDT Yes, Atari Canada is doing a press conference early next month at a big computer show in Montreal. I think the TT will be in there somewhere... ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 195 Mon May 21, 1990 J.ALLEN27 at 23:49 EDT O. Julius...:-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 197 Tue May 22, 1990 P.MCCULLOUGH at 19:09 EDT J. Ayo, Obviously, you haven't seen the specs on the ParSec. The TT can only display 16 colors in its 640 x 480 mode. The ParSec can EASILY do 16 c colors in 1024 x 768! The ParSec 4768 with the 8768-8 or -16 modules can increase that to 256 colors and/or 32,000 colors from a 16.8 Million color pallette. The TT can't. The ParSec also uses the premeire graphics chip in the rest of the computer world, the TI 34010-50. It runs at 50MHz, the TT runs at 16MHz. The ParSec also has video configurations of 4 Planne - 2x4 Plane, 8 Plane, and 15 Plane. The Amiga 3000 can't touch this. I think you must be confused. Still, I think a TT/ParSec combo is a logical goal for Elmtech. And it probably could be put on a VME card, right Jimbo? (Thought I said that in my other message-) Paul ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 198 Thu May 24, 1990 MAS2743 [mas2743] at 02:24 CDT Yeah, I know about Parsec stuffs, but it ain't useful to its maturity level because there is NO Renderman-type CAD softwares to support this! Im begging every graphics/animation programmers to write one to use this neat Parsec board. There is MacRenderman out for the Macworld now, why not on ST? Even though the user love (or pride) having photorealistic imagery through their numbers of 3D CAD/REndering packages, it is still slow. But however, it paids the bills in some small business scale. For FULL-FLedged Pixar-quality rendering softwares, take a look at the MacUsers (or MacWorld) page 136. I bet you 1 million dollar you will cry!! Even TT will cry without the help of the programmers! Jeez- I almost quit supporting the Atari world because of MAC and Amiga! <breathing heavily> Please help me to calm down before I quit here. I don't understand why there is no 3D photorealistic software in the ST world? Or did I buy the wrong computer (520ST)? I would even die by the time I got TT in the future with no "5-year dream" in the future by having Renderman-compatible rendering software package. If Parsec supports TT with Renderman-quality softwares, then I would be very most likely to be happy than ever rather than buying a $12,000 Mac II! Mike (I am still very depressed unless I heard a word Renderman for STe/TT). ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 199 Thu May 24, 1990 J.ALLEN27 at 12:41 EDT There are already a couple dozen VME video cards with 34010/34020 chips. Trust me, the image processing world lives on the VME machines so the options are wide open. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 200 Fri May 25, 1990 ISD2 [Julius O.] at 01:50 EDT VME video cards? What form factor/type/etc are they? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 201 Fri May 25, 1990 CYCLONE at 00:54 CDT Of course, there is no shortage of powerful graphics cards already for VME. Isn't the TI 34020 more powerful? Anyone see the announcement of Motorola's new 96002 Multimedia chip? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 202 Sat May 26, 1990 PSINC at 01:20 EDT But Motorola also has a countersuit against Hitachi regarding microcontrollers - I think both companies will settle. In any case, thousands of '030s are in distribution, a short ban wouldn't cause any ill effects. After reading _many_ of the mags and reports out there you get a "balanced" opinion. I don't think Motorola has much to worry about _as long_ as it takes the "hint" and settles. Both companies were being a little childish, it neverhad to go to court. Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 207 Sun May 27, 1990 ISD2 [Julius O.] at 23:32 EDT Any idea what the form'/interface factor of VME video cards is? OR Any idea of what the form/interface factor of most of the VME cards is? Or, in other words, will any of those gnarly VME cards actually fit into a TT? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 208 Mon May 28, 1990 DERRICK at 14:29 EDT ISD, I could not have asked the question better! I tried to point out that all along. I guess Atari will promise us an expansion chassis like they did when the ST first came out. ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 209 Mon May 28, 1990 J.ALLEN27 at 23:48 EDT You should look in EDN, Electronic Design, Imaging and other indutrial industrial trade rags for the ads from VME vendors. Most have extensive catalogs. For instance National instruments has a 3U IEEE488 card for interfacing to lab equipment. The stuff is there but you've got to look for it...they aren't looking for you :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 210 Tue May 29, 1990 DERRICK at 02:41 EDT Allen, VME buss chassis, cable, plus TT, what is the final cost? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 211 Tue May 29, 1990 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 18:35 EDT Derrick, Your asking to Jim to project a final cost, without Atari having said what the cost for the TT will be!! Price has not yet been established. And yes, we have tried VME cards in the TT here in Sunnyvale. We even have some ideas for some cards that we would like to do ourselves, or contract to have done. Bob Brodie PS-Mike (MAS2743) I'm not ignoring you. It's just that my technobabel and your technobabel are of different dialects. TRANSLATION: I don't deal with Renderman graphics, that's TOWNS and rest of the Tech types turf!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 212 Tue May 29, 1990 ISD2 [Julius O.] at 20:42 EDT Thanks for the pointer, Jim. I've been looking in a few industry mags and have only seen ads for the bigger sizes...will have to start digging for their smaller cousins. :-) First VME card I want to see for the TT is a high performance video card. At least 1024x768 by 256 colors with a graphics co-processor onboard (such as a TI34020 or i860)...I already have such a board in an Atari PC5...now I want one for the TT. This would allow a really gnarly implementation of Unix...that is, you run Unix on the '30 and X on the video card for really snappy performance. What else...oh yes...Ethernet! So it can sit on any existing networks. (Appletalk/Localtalk just dosen't cut it speed wise here..) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 213 Tue May 29, 1990 J.ALLEN27 at 21:21 EDT Well AMD or Western Digital just came out with a complete single chip Ethernet controller so that part should be cheap now. TCP/IP and NFS are well documented and PC source code for drivers is readily available. For video I would like to see 24bit stuff on the board, say 640x480 up to 1024x768 SW selectable and all at 16 million colors. It is kinda neat, I have a neat design rolling around my head for a very inexpensive overall circuit :- ) This type of thing exists on the Mac for $999 list so a combo board with a 24bit video/Ethernet/GCR/whatever would not be too expensive, maybe $2000 list. Think of it 1024x768x16 million colors/ single chip Ethernet (thick + thin)/GCR/other wonders...all for only $2000 plus the TT. And the TT would be around $3500? to be competitive with CBM and Appollo. The total would be very competitive with a Mac setup...all we would need is for Dave to get one of those "color" patches for quickdraw like Radius sells for older SEs. It's food for thought but there ain't no TTs out there yet so don't loose any sleep over it yet :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 214 Tue May 29, 1990 DERRICK at 22:07 EDT Bob(Atari Corp.), are you guys going to redesign the TT's casing? ------------ Category 14, Topic 35 Message 215 Tue May 29, 1990 K.ALBURY [Blade Runner] at 22:24 EDT PLEASE do something with the design. The keyboard is great but I think the case should look more professional. Something like a Mega ca