Reverse Code Engineering RCE CD +sandman 2000/ReverseCodeEngineeringRceCdsandman2000.iso/RCE/Mammon_/Partiii.txt

Text File | 2000-05-25 | 26KB | 532 lines

Humanity? Pfui! An awful past, an apalling present, a non-existing future.
 Wednesday, 21-Oct-98 10:49:08

      Dearest Fravia,

      The subject of this posting is part of a reply you made to a post several days ago.

      For the past 10.000 or so years humanity has surely made a mess of things. But before
      that?
      What has gone before that? A void? Nothingness... people living in dark caves, scurring
      after some morsel of gristle while in fear of their very lives? A lifetime of toil and
      and savegery?

      This is what our culture (And I mean 99% of the current world population as "culture",
      which is one, not many) would have you believe.

      In fact homo sapians sapians lived in harmony with nature for 300 or so million years
      before the event known as the "birth of civilisation" occurred. Only then did the
      practise of denying food to all competitors to humanity take hold. And it spread. It has
      spread to cover 99% of the worlds human population, and it is the only cause of the
      worlds destruction. The notion that Man was made to conquer and rule the world goes
      against the natural law of competition and balance.

      Here, indeed, is a matter to reverse...

      How did we come to be here and forget how to live? We have in our culture, with ourselves
      as it's transmitors, a program which is so defective as to make Windoze98 look like an
      assembly implementation of "Hello World!" It permiates every fabric of our lives and
      lulls us into believing that soon, in the not too distant future the great Humantiy will
      understand ALL about the world and therefore conquer and rule it utterly. If you don't
      believe me, tell me a story from our culture's media that doesn't have this as it's
      central theme.

      Surely we must realize that this program will only cause the destruction of our planet.

      As one of your cadre of reversers mentioned in an essay, people are asleep, their lives
      futile and robotic. To recognize one's humanity as one of billions of species sharing
      this planet equally is an adjustment of one's assembly point that has left me feeling
      more human, yet more alone than ever.



      b
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Humanity? Pfui! An awful past, an apalling present, a non-existing future.
 Wednesday, 21-Oct-98 15:03:15

      well, im thinking EXACTLY the same, i think humanity made all things wrong, humans have
      no right to live any longer.

      I feel alone too....


      tVOG
-------------------------------------------------------------------
 Thursday, 22-Oct-98 03:31:19


      I'll admit to having a bit of a problem with the "humans have no right to live any
      longer" part, perhaps because I am not unbaised ;)

      I have noticed, though, that most of humanity's total f*ckups have been caused by humans
      acting en masse; in the same way, most of humanity's advances have been caused by humans
      acting as individuals (inventors, pioneers, scientists). Occasionally the work of an
      individual is used by or for the masses to cause an even bigger f*ckup than would
      normally occur. And occasionally (frequently?) and individual uses or exploits the masses
      in order to gain personal profits therefrom (ergo capitalism... the surprising part is
      that the masses allow it), which causes still further f*ckups.

      It is my somewhat considered opinion that the more humans tend to think like individuals,
      the less f*ckups there are likely to be (or at least f*ckups of lesser magnitude).

      _m


      mammon_
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Re: Humanity? Pfui! An awful past, an apalling present, a non-existing future.
 Thursday, 22-Oct-98 09:02:48

      Well said, Sir.

      "By their fruits ye shall know them." Politicians a case in point: Unfortunately, hearsay
      (read campaign propaganda) isn't adequate and we must sample the fruit before we know how
      it tastes. [if I were very bold I could insert here a pun about Ms. Lewinski] Inch Allal,
      Praise Gaia, and Hail Eris, the amount of damage a President or any politician can do is
      limited by the length of his term; in less fortunate countries, by the length of his
      life. To digress, have you ever noticed how the leaders of such other countries always
      keep their
      populations roused against the "The Western Devil" That way they are convinced we are
      stealing from them rather than their leaders, and they are less likely to have their term
      of office limited by the usual means; assassination.
      How does one know what is really going on in the world? Though it is possible for
      subatomic particles to be in two places at once, and though I am composed of those
      particles, I haven't yet learned the trick. All we can know of the world is what we
      experience through our own senses. Beyond that, all we can know is what is reported to us
      by others. How we and they process the
      data coming in is dependent on factors such as native intelligence, our early
      conditioning by our parents, our conditioning by our peer groups, and, lastly, by the
      larger society of which those groups are a part.
      Individuation is possible only to the degree one can and is willing to remove himself
      from those influences and remove those influences from
      himself. Some call that "rising above the level of the sheep" but unless one becomes a
      hermit, one must still interact with society. Unless ones interactions are very cautious,
      those sheep will turn around and trample you
      to death.

      W_B




      w_b
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Re: Re: Humanity? Pfui! An awful past, an apalling present, a non-existing future.
 Saturday, 24-Oct-98 06:34:29

      W_B,

      I agree largely with what you say, but there are a few points ...

      You say that the amount of damage that a politico can do is limited to the length of his
      term. Perhaps you should reflect on that comment (and history).

      Cocerning your discussion about "The Western Devil". Perhaps you would consider Cuba to
      be one of your 'such other countries'?. Cuba suffers hugely from sanctions imposed by the
      States. The whole population rather than just it's leaders suffers from a shortage of
      even the most basic of medical supplies due to the sanctions imposed by the states and
      respected by many other Western countries. In a sense denying health is like stealing the
      right to health. Societies opposed to the Western Devil have their populations targeted
      (sometimes literally) rather than their leaders.

      We are able to process sense perceptions to an extremely high degree. Learning is the
      means by which individuation is achieved - it has to do with the choice of certain
      influences above others.

      From what you write, I get the impression that you may be somewhat of a behaviourist. I
      can recommend Skinner's 'Walden 2'.


      Deep
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Humanity? Pfui! An awful past, an apalling present, a non-existing future.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
 Sunday, 25-Oct-98 12:56:02

      Dear Deep,

      I was thinking in terms of those leaders who spend a disporportionate amount of thier
      peoples resources on maintaining their political and military machines.
      If one takes the long view, it is blaringly obvious that since the beginning of recorded
      history many politicians have been corrupt. There are, however, systems of Government
      which manage to withstand them.
      As a health care provider I am intimately familiar with the effects of undernourishment
      and lack of good medical care. Those things, denial of food and medical care are not
      specific to any country. I must ask you, though, how much input you and your countrymen
      have on where public funds are directed?
      I know of situations where the leaders of a nation have sold the food and medical
      supplies intended to relieve the suffering of their people to bolster a failing military
      regime.

      ". . .Learning is the means by which individuation is achieved - it has to do with the
      choice of certain influences above others."

      Yes. And the ability to rise above those conditions which influence what one learns.
      My interest is primarily with cognative processes. For example: what if you were to learn
      that you are the center of the universe and that what you see is a projection of your own
      internal state of being?

      Regards,
      W_B
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Humanity? Pfui! An awful past, an apalling present, a non-existing future.
 Thursday, 22-Oct-98 14:05:06


      If you are thinking in the EXACTLY same way of another human being, you, after all, are
      not really alone. And if you are not alone, you should check (I guess) your concept about
      humans without any "right to live any longer"...
      ...or am I wrong?

      -Freeman
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Humanity? Pfui! An awful past, an apalling present, a non-existing future.
 Wednesday, 21-Oct-98 16:24:48

      Dear B.,

      > homo sapians sapians lived in harmony with nature for 300 or so million years before
      the event known as the "birth of civilisation" occurred.

      In fact, the oldest known Hominid species, Ardipithecus ramidus, is dated at 4.4 million
      years. It is known they were "possibly" bi-pedal, approximately 122cm tall with teeth
      resembling those of apes. (White et al. 1994; Wood 1994) Homo sapiens sapiens did not
      appear until roughly 120,000 years ago. (Leakey 1994) The cave paintings in the ArdΦche
      Region of France are dated within the Paleolithic era, 32,000 to 30,000 years ago.

      > Only then did the practise of denying food to all competitors to humanity take hold.

      We know they made tools and clothing, works of art and musical instruments. To say more
      of them than that is mere conjecture.

      > Surely we must realize that this program will only cause the destruction of our planet.


      Which program is that? Would you mind clarifying your point?

      > . . . one's assembly point that has left me feeling more human, yet more alone than
      ever.

      Are you saying you are not a part of the "field?" I'd love to see you step out of it! ;-)

      Regards,
      W-B





      w_b
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Humanity? ..>REALity Check Here
 Friday, 23-Oct-98 22:06:22

      Average lifespan now ~70years
      Average lifespan 50 yrs ago ~60
      Average lifespan 100yrs ago ~50
      Average lifespan 500yrs ago ~35
      Average lifespan 1c ago ~30
      Average lifespan 8c ago ~22
      No quibbling over ▒ a couple of years; all are based on survivors over 6YOA.

      I don't like a lot of things about modern cultures, but thats what we've got. The past
      has never been rosy if you take a hard look at it.

      jp
-------------------------------------------------------------------
=======================================================================
Reality Cracking===>survival, pulling the planet together.
 Thursday, 29-Oct-98 12:23:41

      Greetings and felicitations kind beings! Kudos' to +Fravia and all +'s.
      It is such a delight to read the sparkles of light emanating from +ORC's teachings!

      If we are to pull the planet together, how can we get people to change their mindset to
      allow this?

      First lets break it down to perspectives.
      1. Religion
      God is on my side, you will die and go to hell. And in God's name I'll make sure you get
      there, you heathen s*b.
      2. Survival
      I must kill or have control of you, otherwise you will do it to me. (Also, every
      individual for themselves)
      3. Collectives
      Race: Color, Language, Religion, ECT.
      Tribe: Boundaries
      City: Football team VS another
      State: Football team VS another
      Nation: Football team VS another
      Planet: Olympics (Yes it's a Nation game)
      System
      Ect.
      All collectives are ME Vs YOU or We're better than you.
      While there are many more categories, the majority are derivatives of these three.
      Why bring perspectives up? Let's try on different shoes.

      1. If your children are starving, what will you do?
      a). As an individual
      b). As a Tribe
      c). As a Nation
      d). As a Planet

      Answers: a). Kill and steal or beg, would you allow yourself to be enslaved to feed them?
      b). Attack another tribe, go to productive land, assuming there is empty productive land.
      c). Attack the closest Nation for their own good, as long as it gives you resources to
      feed your own. Would you tell your collective only one child per couple? Due to limited
      resources. d). Perhaps later ;)

      That wasn't too bad. Now, all you goody two shoes don't start flaming. It's your turn
      next.

      2. You are a wealthy Nation with resources, will you give them to your needy neighbors?
      So they can...
      a). Overpopulate (Religious, no birth control for them) and go to war to reduce internal
      pressures.
      b). They feel you haven't given enough...and take you to war.
      c). Overpopulate and all the people die due to pollution, disease and famine.
      d). Thank their God for your charity and take your heathen nation to war.

      Good grief that's long winded! A little more to go.

      Sorry if you don't like my answers ;( Use your own ;)

      One more: If you had the POWER to give people a very long life (500 years). Would you
      give it to them, before or after, we had planetary travel? Or doesn't it matter to you?

      So, how can we lift everybody up, to realize that the Earth is a small spaceship with
      limited supplies. Where it goes, we go. If it gets wiped out, we get wiped out. We can
      either all work together and expand from our planet (while turning it into the Earth
      World Park) or we will all perish.

      We all belong to the Human Race.

      Isn't it time, we started showing it?

      gracefully savage


      gracefully savage
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Reality Cracking===>survival, pulling the planet together.
 Thursday, 29-Oct-98 20:13:11


      We all belong to the human race. That said, let's rejoice in our differences too. Who
      would be the architect of the coming together you propose? After whose thought patterns
      could we model our mindset? Are you willing to give every man, woman and child on the
      planet an equal voice in the decision without pressure to conform to any one ideal? Is it
      our machinations or natural selection that will win in the end? The Earth speaks for
      herself. Perhaps our species is not necessary for her survival. And she will. . .long
      after we are gone.

      W_B


      w_b
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Reality Cracking===>survival, pulling the planet together.
 Saturday, 31-Oct-98 03:00:23


      Greetings W_B,
      Excuse the delay in getting back to you. I'm saddened at your reply. I too rejoice at the
      diversity of people, this does not have to change to develop a common or communal goal (a
      common mindset gives you bad connotations). In fact, it increases the probability of
      success. As to the architect, why should I care who (your displaying you vs me), as long
      as someone can present a path to follow. That's the rub, creating a path all people would
      embrace.
      It will be both, our machinations and natural selection that allow us to continue. But
      the past is littered with dead end natural selection. Some of our choices we must
      consciously choose.
      As for the Earth being here after we're gone, I wouldn't promise that.

      Thanks once again, for your response.

      gracefully savage


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Re: Reality Cracking===>survival, pulling the planet together.
 Saturday, 31-Oct-98 22:41:17

      Salutations, Graceful, Savage one,

      Dealays are common and providing reasons for them, unnessary. There is no obligation,
      ever. "this does not have to change to develop a common or communal goal (a common
      mindset gives you bad connotations)."

      I do find "communal goal" a more positive term. ;-) Have you noticed how often it happens
      that two people brought up in the same country and speaking the same language from birth
      fail to understand each other completely? The word green, for example, evokes in me
      childhood recollections of the sphagnum moss that carpeted the forest floor only a few
      meters from our house. In addition, I asociate with that color certain smells and sounds.
      I canonly speculate about what your experience of "green" is. But because we share
      knowledge and values taught us by our culture (I am assuming here) we can most likely
      arive at an understanding of it that will satisfy us both.

      Along comes Samir, who has lived in a magnificent desert all of his life, and Pol, whose
      family was forced to abandon their peaceful, village home to live in a jungle. Samir has
      never seen green and doesn't miss it. For Pol it resurrects the terror of hiding from the
      soldiers who would have slaughtered his baby sister and raped his mother had they not
      fled. Between the four of us, now, it will be much more difficult to reach a consensus
      about the meaning and value of green. These are exaggerations, of course, meant to
      illustrate the point that without a common language and a common understanding of that
      language we cannot bring a discusion of a common goal to the table. That is a great
      barrier to overcome.

      Since I first became acquainted with it, I've been stirred by the hope that the Internet
      would become a forum that would bring the people of different nations together. It
      appears to offer the opportunity but I've begun to fear that is an illusion. First,
      because most of us with access to it live within the upper strata, educationally and
      financially, of our individual societies and of the world in general. Here,
      http://www2.gsoc.dir.de/satvis/geodistrib.html you will see a fairly reliable, graphical
      representation of who and where we are. [thank you, +B] Don't be fooled by what seems to
      be a large number of people online in China. If you look closely you will see that it is
      a kind of miror reflection of the United States. It was created by people in the U.S. who
      have entered their longitude as a positive rather than a negative integer. There is one
      beginning to form opposite Australia too ;-)

      Some factors to consider. There is good, sound research which suggests that much of what
      we experience in our communication with the people we meet online is a projection of our
      own internal state, of our own desires. If you've ever met an e-mail pal you might have
      discovered this for yourself. 2) It is as difficult online to escape those familial and
      social conventions which influence our choices as it is in "real life."

      In order for the Internet to live op to its potential it must bridge the technical,
      political, racial, monetary and in some places, gender gaps you'll find on that map, and
      we must do whatever reverse engineering is necessary to eliminate those kinds of barriers
      within ourselves as well. Maybe then, Graceful Savage, once we've all been invited to sit
      at the round table, shared a few experiences, a cocktail (make mine a Scotch and Tang.
      Don't shake it, a gentle yaw will do. Let's toast the Discovery 7, boys, and get cracking
      ;-) touched, heard, seen and breathed each other we can discuss our choices. Or at least
      have one hell of a good food fight. I'm afraid that's the best answer I can come up with.
      What else is there? A new Messiah? Invasion by aliens from beyond?

      W_B


      w_b
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Re: Re: Reality Cracking===>survival, pulling the planet together.
 Friday, 06-Nov-98 01:17:51

      Greetings Wrath_Bringer,
      It is my hope we will all, be able to gather round the same table. It may become a law to
      protect every persons right to access the web. Nice thought ;)
      Most of our future learning of our childern (and ourselves) will come from learning sites
      and databases on the web. Is there really need for schools, other than people skills and
      exercise, when you can learn everything from the net?

      Wait a second, what if the web (was sentient)and monitored every person in the world,
      insuring their safety throughout the day. The Web would be the World Goverment. The
      Nations would only provide services. Every person in the world could vote.
      Hmmmm, I must be dreaming.

      May the Light always be with you, and of course, your chair is always waiting for you, at
      the Round Table.

      Till we sit together again,

      gracefully savage




      gracefully savage
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Reality Cracking===>survival, pulling the planet together.
 Friday, 06-Nov-98 13:00:33

      Hello, Gracefully Savage,

      " It is my hope we will all be able to gather round the same table. It may become a law
      to protect every persons right to access the web. Nice thought ;-)"

      As long as we are talking about clearing a few roads so everyone can come to the party,
      not forcing them to attend at bayonette point.

      " Most of our future learning of our children (and ourselves) will come from learning
      sites and databases on the web, Is there really need for schools, other than people
      skills and exercise, when you can learn everything from the net?"

      . . .an institution where any person can find instruction in any study. __ Ezra Cornell.
      The research that has been done suggests that distance learning is highly effective for
      motivated, secondary level students as long as it allows the students to interact among
      themselves and with their teachers. For an interesting example, read The Sandman's note
      above: Reality Cracking - Newbies showing the way? (29-Oct-98). The primary benefit of
      computer aided learning lies in applying higher order skills, making questionable its
      value as a teaching medium at middle and early primary school levels. As you observed,
      the littlest ones need to learn some social skills first, plus the ability to communicate
      effectively and manipulate the medium. Is the traditional classroom setting the right
      place for them to learn these things? That is an open debate.

      " Wait a second, what if the web (was sentient) and monitored every person in the world,
      insuring their safety throughout the day?"

      Sounds Orwellian. How about canonizing Fravia for teaching personal self-sufficiency.

      " The web would be the World Government."

      With each person in the world a member of the Governing body. Don't forget that the web
      is people using machines and not the other way around.

      "Nations would only provide services."

      Nations. . .hmmm. . .more like infrastructures necessitated purely by natural,
      geographical boundaries.

      "Every person in the world could vote."

      There you go. Secret ballot, of course.

      "Hmmmm, I must be dreaming."

      Well, you're not the only one ;-)

      " May the Light always be with you, and of course, your chair is always waiting for you,
      at the Round Table. Till we sit together again,. . ."

      Wait a minute! Before you go anywhere, teach me how you fudge your IP#.

      W_B


      w_b
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Reality Cracking===>survival, pulling the planet together.
 Thursday, 05-Nov-98 19:07:09



      Well, what I want to say to you is that the thing you┤re talking about and you looking
      forward to is the so said globalization.
      I am just writing it to warn you to pay attention to what you write, because you are
      almost defending the politicians that want the globalization only for reinforcing
      consumerism.
      Ok, globalization is nice and so, but please, just focus on the comunication subject and
      not on the political stuf.
      Political and economical globalization are just excuses for U.S.A and Europe domination
      of the whole world.




      Time_Master


      Time_Master
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Reality Cracking===>survival, pulling the planet together.
 Friday, 06-Nov-98 16:19:40


      Boa tarde, Time Master,

      The two paths are very close, aren't they?

      W_B


      w_b