MR. STENGEL: I could not see a person. I think possibly that was because the last lifeboat was being lowered off the starboard side, and I suppose the people had gone to the other side.
SENATOR BOURNE: Your boat was on the starboard side?
MR. STENGEL: On the starboard side, the right side looking toward the bow.
SENATOR BOURNE: Your boat was the last boat to leave?
MR. STENGEL: So far as I saw. I saw no other boat on that side, sir.
SENATOR BOURNE: When you were refused admission into the boat in which your wife was, were there a number of ladies and children there at the time?
MR. STENGEL: No, sir; there were not. These two gentlemen had put their wives in, and were standing on the edge of the deck, and when they started lowering, they jumped in. My wife said there were five, but I saw only two.
SENATOR BOURNE: What is your impression, that no effort was made to awake the passengers who were asleep at the time of the accident?
MR. STENGEL: I would not say that, any more than I heard the comment made about the actions of the stewards. That is all I could say.
SENATOR BOURNE: You have no specific knowledge in that direction?
MR. STENGEL: No, sir.
SENATOR BOURNE: General orders were issued for the passengers to put on life preserves, were they?
MR. STENGEL: Yes, sir; I heard those orders issued.
SENATOR BOURNE: Do you know who issued the orders?
MR. STENGEL: No, sir; I do not. I heard the orders issued, and then I went down and put on a life preserver, and my wife put on one.
SENATOR BOURNE: Were there any people on the decks, and did the number steadily increase after the issuance of those orders?
MR. STENGEL: They did not come up very fast; no sir. There were not many people on deck when my wife's boat went off, and I think my wife's boat was the second boat. There were not very many people on the top deck at that time.
SENATOR BOURNE: When you had gone down and donned the life preservers and returned you returned to the top deck?
MR. STENGEL: Yes, sir.
SENATOR BOURNE: So you are not cognizant of the condition on the lower decks?
MR. STENGEL: No, sir.
SENATOR BOURNE: That is all.
SENATOR BURTON: Were there more than 10 in this emergency boat at any time before you were taken on board the Carpathia?
MR. STENGEL: Were there what?
SENATOR BURTON: You have said there were 10; 5 passengers and 5 seamen?
MR. STENGEL: Yes, sir.
SENATOR BURTON: Did any more come into that boat, and were they taken on before you were taken on board the Carpathia?
MR. STENGEL: No, sir. My wife told me the boat she was in had not quite enough people; that is, it was not loaded as much as the other boats, and they lashed two boats together and took some of the people out of one boat and put them in the other and divided them up.
SENATOR BURTON: But in that boat there were not more than 10 at any time? That is, in your boat, I mean?
MR. STENGEL: No, sir.
SENATOR BURTON: And yet you say that was the capacity of the boat?
MR. STENGEL: So far as I could see; yes, sir.
SENATOR BURTON: Did you compare that emergency boat with any of the other emergency boats to see if it was the same size?
MR. STENGEL: No, sir; I did not.
SENATOR BURTON: You did not notice it before, while you were en voyage?
MR. STENGEL: No, sir.
SENATOR BURTON: Or later?
MR. STENGEL: No, sir.
SENATOR BURTON: Five hundred and forty­six knots was the run as posted just after Sunday noon, you say?
MR. STENGEL: Yes, sir.
SENATOR BURTON: Referring to this light which you say appeared like a light showing through a frosted window pane, where was that light?
MR. STENGEL: It was right toward the bow; it was off in the distance.
SENATOR BURTON: How far away was it?
MR. STENGEL: It was a good ways; I am not familiar with distances at sea, but it was quite a ways off, and most of the boats rowed that way. There was a lady had a cane, I believe, with an electric light, and she was flashing this light, and they were going to that boat, and we were going toward that boat, and there were two other boats around, so the two or three of us kept together; that is, all the boats besides our own kept together. In one of those boats I think there was an old sailor, and he afterwards explained that he took the end of a rope and dipped it in oil and lit that. That was a flare light that every now and then would show.
SENATOR BURTON: This light was not on any of the boats lowered from the Titanic?
MR. STENGEL: The light I spoke of, away of, away off?
SENATOR BURTON: Yes.
MR. STENGEL: No, sir.
SENATOR BURTON: What was your conjecture about it?
MR. STENGEL: My conjecture was this, as I explained when I was first asked what it was. I thought it was a sort of northern light, reflecting on an iceberg. That was my impression of it.
SENATOR SMITH: You did not think it was a ship?
MR. STENGEL: Well, no. We all rowed for it at first, and then it vanished like.
SENATOR SMITH: Where was it; ahead or on the port side?
MR. STENGEL: It was toward the bow. It was just as if, if you were going to walk off the bow of the ship, you would walk toward that light.
SENATOR SMITH: Toward it?
MR. STENGEL: Yes.
SENATOR SMITH: To the left or to the right?
MR. STENGEL: I think a little bit to the right, sir. I am not sure of it, but I should think a trifle to the right.
SENATOR FLETCHER: How far were you from the Titanic when she went down?
MR. STENGEL: I could not say the distance. I saw all the movements. I saw her first row of port lights go under the water; I saw the next port lights go under the water; and finally the bow was all dark. When the last lights on the bow went under, I said, "There is danger here, we had better row away from here. This is a light boat, and there may be suction when the ship goes down. Let us pull away." The other passengers agreed, and we pulled away from the Titanic, and after that we stopped rowing for a while, and she was going down by the bow most all the time, and all of a sudden there were four sharp explosions about that far apart, just like this [the witness indicated by snapping his fingers four times], and then she dipped and the stern stood up in the air, and then the cries began for help. I should think that the people who were left on the boat began to jump over. There was an awful wail like.
SENATOR FLETCHER: Could you see the people?
MR. STENGEL: No, sir; I could not see any of the people, but I could hear them.
SENATOR FLETCHER: What was the character of these explosions?
MR. STENGEL: I do not know, but I should judge it would be a battery of boilers going.
SENATOR FLETCHER: Might it have been the bulkheads giving way?
MR. STENGEL: I do not know. I have never been familiar with bulkheads giving way; but they were quite hard explosions. She dipped, then, forward, and all you could see was the stern sticking up. When I heard the cries I turned back. I said, "I can not look any longer."
SENATOR FLETCHER: You did not attempt to go back to get any of those people.
MR. STENGEL: We could not. We were quite a ways away, and the suggestion was not made, and we did not; that is all there is about that. I do not know why we did not, but we did not.
SENATOR SMITH: Was there any evidence of intoxication among the officers or crew that night?
MR. STENGEL: No, sir. I have a distinct recollection of a Mrs. Thorne stating, while talking about the captain being to dinner, that she was in that party, and she said, "I was in that party, and the captain did not drink a drop." He smoked two cigars, that was all, and left the dining room about 10 o'clock.
SENATOR SMITH: You have spoken of this betting pool. Was any officer or member of the crew engaged in this pool, that you know of?
MR. STENGEL: No, sir; not that I know of. I just happened to be in the party. I had been watching a game of cards most of the trip, and Mr. Harris, one of the ill­fated passengers, had won the hat pool.
SENATOR SMITH: This was a pasttime among the passengers?
MR. STENGEL: Yes.
SENATOR SMITH: And you are quite certain that no officer or director took any part in it?
MR. STENGEL: I did not see any of them, sir; and I did not even go and look at the names of those who were on the list.
SENATOR SMITH: You did not see Mr. Ismay there?
MR. STENGEL: No, sir; I do not know Mr. Ismay.
SENATOR SMITH: Or the captain?
MR. STENGEL: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: There is Mr. Ismay, sitting back at the wall there [indicating].
MR. STENGEL: [after looking at Mr. Ismay]. I do not think I saw Mr. Ismay but one evening, I think, while the band was playing after dinner.
SENATOR SMITH: In the early part of the voyage?
MR. STENGEL: Yes; in the early part of the voyage.
SENATOR SMITH: You said that your friends got ice in a porthole; is that right?
MR. STENGEL: Not my friends. It was one of the passengers who, when I first came up, had a handful of ice, and he said he got that off of the deck of the boat.
SENATOR SMITH: Which deck?
MR. STENGEL: He did not say. He said, "I got this off of the deck of the boat;" and then another passenger afterwards on the Carpathia, said that ice came in at his porthole.
SENATOR SMITH: You do not know where that was?
MR. STENGEL: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Do you know where his stateroom was?
MR. STENGEL: No, sir; I do not.
SENATOR SMITH: Was there comment because of the fact that the port hole was open; was there any special comment on that fact?
MR. STENGEL: He just wanted air. He said, "I left my port hole open for air."
SENATOR SMITH: And he got this ice?
MR. STENGEL: He got some of the ice in there.
SENATOR SMITH: That is all. We are very much obliged to you, Mr. Stengel.
MR. STENGEL: You want the telegrams, you say; do you, sir?
SENATOR SMITH: The telegram which you sent, and the telegram you received. Will you kindly send them to the committee?
MR. STENGEL: Yes, sir; thank you.
Witness excused.
SENATOR SMITH: Mr. Ismay, will you resume the stand? Senator Bourne desires to interrogate you.
TESTIMONY OF J. BRUCE ISMAY ­ Resumed.
SENATOR BOURNE: Mr. Ismay, will you explain, please, of what the White Star Line consists? Is it a corporation, a firm, or a trade­mark?
MR. ISMAY: The legal name of the line is the Oceanic Navigation Co. (Ltd.).
SENATOR BOURNE: Was there ever a White Star Line of sailing ships?
MR. ISMAY: I believe that years ago there was a White Star Line of sailing ships which ran to Australia. My father, many years ago, bought the White Star flag.
SENATOR BOURNE: So that it is simply a trade­mark?
MR. ISMAY: It is simply a trade­mark.
SENATOR BOURNE: In buying that trade­mark did any property go with it?
MR. ISMAY: No, sir; simply the flag.
SENATOR BOURNE: No vessels went with it?
MR. ISMAY: No; simply the right to use the flag.
SENATOR BOURNE: Then the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co. was the real owner of the Titanic?
MR. ISMAY: Yes.
SENATOR BOURNE: That is an English corporation?
MR. ISMAY: Yes; that is an English corporation.
SENATOR BOURNE: Is the stock of that corporation held by the public, or is all the stock, or if not all, then what proportion of it, held by the International Mercantile Marine Co. (Ltd.), which company, as I understand, is the holding company of the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co.?
MR. ISMAY: The capital stock of the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co. is £750,000. Practically all of those shares are owned by the International Mercantile Marine Co.
SENATOR BOURNE: £750,000?
MR. ISMAY: The capital of the White Star Line, or the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co. is £750,000.
SENATOR BOURNE: That company owned the Titanic, which cost £750,000, did it not?
MR. ISMAY: It cost £1,500,000, sir.
SENATOR BOURNE: Yes, I mean £1,500,000.
MR. ISMAY: Yes.
SENATOR BOURNE: Are there any bonds of the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co.?
MR. ISMAY: Yes; there is an issue of £1,250,000 of 5 percent bonds, I think there are.
SENATOR BOURNE: The International Navigation Co. owns all of the stock of the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co.?
MR. ISMAY: The International Mercantile Marine Co.
SENATOR BOURNE: Does the International Navigation Co. own all the stock of the Ocean Steam Navigation Co.?
MR. ISMAY: Yes.
SENATOR BOURNE: It owns all of it?
MR. ISMAY: I think all, except about six shares which are in the hands of individuals.
SENATOR BOURNE: The International Navigation Co.'s stock is owned by the International Mercantile Marine Co.?
MR. ISMAY: Yes.
SENATOR BOURNE: All of it?
MR. ISMAY: Yes.
SENATOR BOURNE: The International Mercantile Marine Co. is an American company, is it not?
MR. ISMAY: Yes.
SENATOR BOURNE: A New Jersey corporation?
MR. ISMAY: Yes.
SENATOR BOURNE: They have about $100,000,000 of stock, in round numbers?
MR. ISMAY: Yes.
SENATOR BOURNE: And $52,000,000 of 4 1/2 per cent bonds?
MR. ISMAY: Yes.
SENATOR BOURNE: $19,000,000 of 5 per cent bonds and $7,000,000 of underlying bonds, as I understand?
MR. ISMAY: I believe that is it.
SENATOR BOURNE: The bonds have no votes at all?
MR. ISMAY: No, sir.
SENATOR BOURNE: Is the stock held principally in the United States, or is it widely disseminated throughout the world?
MR. ISMAY: I do not think anybody has any idea where the stock is held.
SENATOR BOURNE: The stock books would certainly show who has the right to vote?
MR. ISMAY: The stock is in the names of voting trustees.
SENATOR BOURNE: Oh, it is?
MR. ISMAY: Yes.
SENATOR BOURNE: Pooled for how long?
MR. ISMAY: I think until this October. I think it was extended last time for three years or five years.
SENATOR BOURNE: It is an American flotation, is it not?
MR. ISMAY: Yes, sir; absolutely.
SENATOR BOURNE: Built on the plan of the absorption of other companies?
MR. ISMAY: Yes.
SENATOR BOURNE: Or the transfer of its securities for their securities?
MR. ISMAY: Yes.
SENATOR BOURNE: Then the financial policy of the International Mercantile Marine Co. is dictated, I assume, from this country, is it not?
MR. ISMAY: Yes; practically.
SENATOR BOURNE: The majority of the directors live in this country?
MR. ISMAY: Yes; I think the only directors who live over on the other side are Lord Pirrie, Mr. Sanderson, and Mr. Grolson, and myself. There are five.
SENATOR BOURNE: You are the manager of the International Mercantile Marine Co.?
MR. ISMAY: I am president of the International Mercantile Marine Co.
SENATOR BOURNE: What is your official connection with the International Navigation Co., if any, and with the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co., if any?
MR. ISMAY: Of the Oceanic Steam Navigation Co. I am chairman and managing director.
SENATOR BOURNE: And you are the president of the International Mercantile Marine Co.?
MR. ISMAY: Yes.
SENATOR BOURNE: Is the policy of the company directed by you or by a board of directors?
MR. ISMAY: It is really directed by a board of directors.
SENATOR BOURNE: You are the administrator of the policy as indicated by the board of directors?
