NeedleCraft Plus/needlecraftplusvolume1.iso/misc/madder/madder.txt

Text File | 1997-01-06 | 25KB | 462 lines

This is a series of messages about madder dyeing that started on 10-14-91 and
ended on 1-19-93.

From: SHERI STANLEY    To: All
.........Also, a friend and I have been trying to dye with madder.
Every book I've found says that you can get "rose" from madder with
alum. So far: Orange, in forty different shades, nothing but orange.
We've tried changing the heatand fooling with the ph a little, but I'm
starting to get discouraged. Any advice?

From: DEBORAH PULLIAM   To: SHERI STANLEY
I've had some great luckwith madder, but I think age of the dyestuff has
someting to do with it. You'd think that color in dried roots would
remain the same, but try to get some fresh, use A LOT, and you may have
to test the ph level, the problem nay have to do with the water quality
in your area. Are you familiar with A Weaver's GArden by Rita Buchanan,
pugblished by Interweave Press. Rita's done a lot with madder, grown a
lot in fact, and we talked a lot about the strength of color problem,
and came up witht the age theory! Excellent book, and lots of history
(although perhaps not as far back as SCA would want.) Also, make sure
you grind the madder as fine as possible. I even soak it for several
days, then grind it again in a blender, to extract as much color as
possible. Also get a copy of the BBG book on natural dyeing, it has a
lot of good history (I used to work in a museum, and still do a lot of
reprduction work, so I got to know tyhe sources!)]

From: SHERI STANLEY   To: DEBORAH PULLIAM
Well, we've been using "A weaver's garden"--what do you mean by "the
BBG" book? It's true, we haven't been grinding the madder quite that
fine, but over the summer we purchased pre-ground madder & got the same
results (of course, the acrylic choke ties on the skeins turned pink,
but the wool was orange!). Maybe we'll try starting with distilled water
next time. hmn. Thanks

From: TERESA PARKER  To: SHERI STANLEY
I get orange when dyeing madder too.  I grow it in the garden and did
not do anything other than break the root into small pieces.  I was
careful with the temp. and got quite a nice orange using alum, but no
red.  I'll try grinding some next.  There are madder recipes in J. & R.
Bronson Early American Weaving and Dyeing (Dover) and Weaving with
Foot-Power Looms by Edward F. Worst (Dover).  I love Worst's last name
for a weaving book, don't you?  Some of those recipes have you use
Cochineal too.  I wonder if they are trying to tell us something about
madder.  I'm looking for a really good clear red and would like to use
madder.  Is the only way I'm going to get it to use cochineal with
it????

From: ANDREA ALBERT   To: SHERI STANLEY
Some of the same thing happened to me when I tried to dye with
bloodroot.  We had a series of messages about "the evil bloodroot" on
Fibernet before Auntie.  Anyhow, the skein turned sort of "dinge"
colored, and the acrylic tyes turned ORANGE!  A beautiful bright Orange.
 Go figure!

From: DEBORAH PULLIAM  To: SHERI STANLEY
The BBG book is Dyes from Nature, edited by Rita Buchanan. Brooklyn
Botanic Garden Record: Vol. 46, No. 2, Summer 1990. Handbook # 124. $6.
It's a terrific book, lots on history, lots of practical stuff; extremely
affordable!

From: SHERI STANLEY   To: ANDREA ALBERT
What colors did you get from the madder? We (my apprentices & I ) are
trying desperately to get some pinks/reds out of madder & alum, but all
we're getting are oranges! ARRGH.

From: SHERI STANLEY  To: AFTON KOONTZ
You don't happen to have a suggestion for my little madder problem, do
you? (We just can't get pink or red w/alum. Orange, orange, orange.
yuck.)

From: ANDREA ALBERT  To: SHERI STANLEY
I got orange tones, some deep roses (kind of - with orange overtones)
and some purple-ish tones with chrome.  VERY NICE!

From: NANCY ROSE  To: SHERI STANLEY
Be sure to keep the temperature of the madder bath down to 180
degrees.  A higher temperature knocks out the red and brings out
yellow tones.  Nevertheless, madder is a yellower redÉ<han
cochineal.

From: SHERI STANLEY  To: NANCY ROSE
Well, we've kept the temperature down...we're pretty sure it has to do
with the amount of iron in our water (and who-knows-what else in the
water). We're waiting for more madder...then we'll try with distilled
water & seee if we don't get a better result. The oranges were nice, but
they're just not what I expected (of course, the *acrylic* choke ties
turned a beautiful rosy pink! And all we got on the homespun wool was
old orange. feh.).

From: NANCY ROSE    To: SHERI STANLEY
Gee, try nylon ties.  Nylon is protein, like wool.

From: NANCY ROSE    To: SHERI STANLEY
Just off the top of my head, because it's been a while since I did any
natural dying, I seem to remember that madder does better in slightly
hard water.  See Ida Grae.  She calls for some chalk (limestone)).
I'm in Chicago, where we have slightly hard water.  If you have iron in
your water, perhaps it is slightly acid water?  Try a small sample with a
pinch of lime or perhaps ammonia to see if the color changes.  The iron
should have a dulling (saddening) effect but I don't think it would yellow
the color.

From: SHERI STANLEY  To: NANCY ROSE
Well, as I said, we're waiting for more madder to see...I'll try the
ammonia or washing soda, maybe. Dunno.

From: NED GUTTMAN   To: SHERI STANLEY
Something has happened to the world's madder.  I've bought from two
sources and yes--ORANGE the big O!!  It's frustrating.  I even tried
raising the temperature which is supposed to throw the color to brown,
and I realized that I didn't have to be so careful.  You might try
adding black walnut hulls to brown your orange OR try overdyeing with
cochineal (not too heavy a bath) and add a pinch of tin OR perhaps a
weak indigo pot to give you a copper color.  Maybe this year's madder

From: RON PARKER   To: NED GUTTMAN
An organic chemist I'm not, but this madder thing has me interested.  By
the way, we grow our own, and it does the same orange that everyone else
reports.

But, the orange vs. red problem deserves a little Sherlock Holmes sort of
attention.  First off, madder roots can be very red - especially the
"bark" of the roots.  Inasmuch as the roots are red, and the polyester
ties on a wool skein dye red, it follows that the color molecules in the
root attach just fine to polyester.  However, as all you people know,
wool picks up a very nice orange.  My son and I wear lovely orange socks
dyed by Teresa with home grown madder.

OK, here's my theory.  The classic red of the British redcoats is a
combination of a pink dye or dyes and an orange dye or dyes.  Wool bonds
with the orange molecules only whereas polyester grabs both the pink and
the orange, and comes out a nice red.  A reasonable experiment to test
this maddness would be to dye some wool with madder, then use the bath to
dye some polyester.  If my knuckleheaded theory is right, the polyester
should be pink, not red - the orange portion having been captured by the
wool. This can be called the tomato model - pink flesh + orange skin =
red.

If that proves to be a correct wild guess, then the trick is to get wool
to grab the pink as well as the orange - and presumably do it in the
desired order - presumably pink first. Does this sound like a mordant
problem? If so, should the mordanting be before the madder bath?  Maybe
it should be after a first madder bath in order to link the pink to the
orange in a second bath. Who knows?  We need a chemist into
organo-metallic compounds I think.

Somebody knows, or at least knew how to do it once.  How about one of you
stalwarts digging into the literature and finding out how the Brits did
it in the 18th century.  It is probably a trade secret sort of thing, but
it's out there somewhere.  Probably just a matter of the right amount of
eye of newt (Gingerich), exudate of earthworm, and moustache hair of a
virgin (of either sex) - used in the correct order and at the appropriate
temperatures of course.

From: STANLEY BULBACH  To: NED GUTTMAN
NG▒Something has happened to the world's madder.  I've bought from two
  ▒sources and yes--ORANGE the big O!!  It's frustrating.  I even tried

Natural dyeing is rather intimidating when done well, and I don't
consider my skills to be good enough to teach others.  But I am noticing
a pandemic of problems with orange instead of red.

Madder usually required hard water with a calcium content.  How is the
water in your area?  Also, alum mordanting is more complex and sensitive
than most books admit, so that might complicate the problem further.
Cohineal of course has its merits.

From: RON PARKER   To: STANLEY BULBACH
SB │ Cohineal of course has its merits.

The bug coats are coming! The bug coats are coming!

From: NANCY ROSE  To: RON PARKER
--> Somebody knows, or at least knew how to do it once.  How about one of you
-> stalwarts digging into the literature and finding out how the Brits did

Okay, here's Elijah Bemis, "The Dyer's Companion", 1815, reprinted by
Dover, 1973:

"FOR RED WITH MADDER.

        "To twenty yards of cloth, take one peck of wheat bran, boil it in
a small kettle with eight gallons of water, one hour; then fill your copper
with water, boiling hot; then add the liquor of the bran, and three and an
half pounds of allum, one pouud of red argal, boil and run your cloth,
(being well scoured and clean) one and an half hours, boiling; then air
and rince your cloth, and shift the liquor from your copper; fill with fair
water, then add eight pounds of madder that is good, and heat moderately,
with constant stirring, till near scalding hot; run your cloth three
quarters of an hour with a moderate fire, then increase your fire, and
bring it near a boiling heat, but not boiling, for the madder must not
boil, if you intend to have a good red; then run your cloth in this manner
until the strength is well out of the madder, and the colour well raised
on the red; then shift your liquor from your copper; fill with water, and
add two and an half pounds of the best Brazil, boil well one hour, and add
three quarters of a pound of allum and run your cloth till your colour
suits, boiling between each dipping; and this will produce a good red.

        "This colour may be finished in the madder dye without shifting
the dye, by adding two gallons of lant or sig.  After the colour is well
raised in the madder, run your cloth thirty minutes, and it will answer.

        "The best is with Brazil, but it is more lengthy, and the colour
is brighter than with the sig; so I leave it to the discretion of the
dyer."

red argal: potassium bitartrate made from red grapes.
sig: fermented urine, substitute ammonia.

So there.

From: RON PARKER   To: NANCY ROSE
Now, THERE'S a recipe.  Thanks.  What is lant?  Also, is Brazil logwood?
One wonders if some copper dissolved from the pot might play a part too.
Might be worth trying adding a bit of a copper salt to the bath.  Also,
there could be lead both from the solder on the boiler as well as from
the 1815 plumbing.  The mind reels.

From: NANCY ROSE   To: RON PARKER
Lant wasn't in the glossary but the Oxford English D. says "stale
urine...chamber lye".  (I LOVE the Oxford English.  What other dictionary
would give that kind of information.  The last citation is from 1879.)

Brazil is brazilwood, not logwood.  Adrosko gives three different trees
called brazilwood:  Caesalpinia echinata, from Brazil; Caesalpinia sappan,
from India, Malaya, and Ceylon; and Haematoxylon brasiletto, from
Nicaragua, Colombia, and Venezuela.  This last one would be related to
logwood, Haematoxylon campechianum.  I gather the brazilwoods are not very
fast.

As for the plumbing, I'm not sure that it used lead pipes or joints or
that could be made with lead.  Bemis occasionally mentions well water for
this dye or river water for that dye but doesn't say how to get it to the
pot other than "A dye-house should, however, be erected on a spacious
plan, roofed over, but admitting a good light, and as nigh as possible to a
running water, which is very necessary, either to prepare the wool before
it is dyed, or to wash it afterwards."

Bemis says this about his dyepots:  "The first thing necessary is the
copper kettle; I say *copper* kettle, because it is most commonly used in
all hot dyes, and all hot dyes may be coloured in the copper, and I shall
mention no other in the following receipts.  Block tin or brass, are
better for red and yellow, than the copper; and iron the best for black or
green; but this I leave to the discretion of those in practice.  The size
ought to be from two to four barrels, according as your business
requires."

This is a fun book.  Elijah Bemis, "The Dyer's Companion", Dover Pubs.,
New York, 1973.  Check it out.  LONG section on indigo vats.

From: RON PARKER   To: NANCY ROSE
NR │ As for the plumbing, I'm not sure that it used lead pipes or joints or
NR │ that could be made with lead.

One would need a plumbing history book, but I have the impression that
wood was used for large pipes, cast iron and tile for medium sized pipes,
and lead for the smaller ones.  Lead was still used a century ago for
water lines from city mains to houses.

NR │ Bemis occasionally mentions well water for this dye or river water
NR │ for that dye

Could be related to differences in hardness or oxygen content.  Much well
water is oxygen free to the extent that it contains iron and manganese in
soluble form which then becomes insoluble and precipitates out as oxides
and hydroxides on exposure to air over the course of a number of hours.
Until then, though the iron and manganese would be free to react with
dyes.

NR │ mention no other in the following receipts.  Block tin or brass, are
NR │ better for red and yellow, than the copper; and iron the best for black or
NR │ green;

Makes me wish I was temporarily back in my lab at Wyoming where I could
have done non-destructive chemical analysis of some old dyed fabric for
trace elements to see if the pot composition shows up in the fabric
chemistry.  Probably does.

From: ANN DURHAM    To: All
On the subject of mordants--the famous Unicorn tapestries have been
chemically analyzed and one of the mordants used was zinc!  Has anyone
ever heard of (or tried) this?  Maybe it's one of the secrets to madder
red.

From: RON PARKER   To: ANN DURHAM
The use of a zinc mordant for madder is worth a try, and interesting.
Certainly zinc would have been available to the old timers, and could
even have entered in as a contaminant from zinc-coated vessels much as
copper is leached from copper containers.  I suspect that both lead and
arsenic would have their place as well, but safety concerns might
inhibit experimentation in those directions.  Lead and arsenic were used
in all sorts of concoctions in the days of yore.

From: DEBORAH PULLIAM   To: RON PARKER
Am I really the only person getting red from madder? I╒ve used it with
an alum mordant, and gotten a wonderful Chinese lacquer red. I did use a
fairly heavy concentration of madder root to wool to get the intense
color. On another batch, I used some that might have been old, not
ground too well, and got a very nice coral color (but not what I had in
mind.) I do know it╒s important to grind the root well, to release the
red pigments, which are deeper in the roots. The browns tend to be in
the "bark" and closer to the surface. Also, the browns tend to come out
at higher temperatures, which is why it's important to control the
simmering point.
Something like 18 different compounds of pigments are in the roots, so
somehow dyers are getting the wrong ones. The most likely solution is
that the water contains something that is not bringing out the bluer
reds, but is concentrating the yellows and browns, and, in effect, is
acting as a further mordant (that you don't want). Who knows what is in
my water; we have a 100 year old-plus water company that adds things,
and it changes from day to day. I do know some of the old dye books
specify hard water for madder, and adding slaked lime if necessary.
Wool for the British redcoats was dyed with madder, using an alum
mordant, Ron; they tended to use such every day things as cow and sheep
manure (I was about to say shit, as I normally would, but you insist
this is a family BBS) and wood ash. In the research I've done on the
16th, 17th, and 18th centuries, I never ran into any eye of newt, worm
casts, or moustache hairs of any species. Sorry to disappoint you.

From: RON PARKER   To: DEBORAH PULLIAM
DP > Am I really the only person getting red from madder?

Apparently, at least the only Fibernetter who is.  Teresa used an alum
mordant too.  The water used is our hard well water after being run
through an iron remover gadget then a water softener.  Will have to try
adding some lime next time and grinding finer.  How do you grind the
roots?  I was thinking a coffee mill or foood processer might work.  Will
have to try distilled water too.  Maine water should be relatively pure
and soft if my geologist's guess is correct.  Oh well, will have to dig
some new roots this summer, and do a little experimenting - we have sheep
s... and wood ashes in abundance, so they might be worth a shot too.

From: NANCY ROSE  To: RON PARKER
-> The water used is our hard well water after being run
-> through an iron remover gadget then a water softener.

It's my understanding that a water softener adds salt to the water.  Salt
is usually a leveller in dyeing, which slows down the rate at which the
dye is taken up by the wool.  Can you intercept the water between the iron
remover and the softener?

From: NANCY ROSE   To: RON PARKER
-> ...adding some lime next time and grinding finer.  How do you grind the
-> roots?  I was thinking a coffee mill or food processer might work.

When I was doing natural dying, some years ago, I would soak the madder
overnight in water to cover, which softens it considerably, then run it
through the blender with the soaking water until it was nearly a paste.

From: RON PARKER   To: NANCY ROSE
NR │ When I was doing natural dying, some years ago, I would soak the madder
NR │ overnight in water to cover, which softens it considerably, then run it
NR │ through the blender with the soaking water until it was nearly a paste.

That was Deborah Pulliam's suggestion too.  When I dig some root this
summer, I'll try that.  I suppose freshly dig could be ground immediately.

From: NANCY ROSE   To: DEBORAH PULLIAM
-> Am I really the only person getting red from madder? I╒ve used it with
-> an alum mordant, and gotten a wonderful Chinese lacquer red. I did use a

I found a bit of yarn I dyed several years ago with madder.  Maybe we
should each send a sample of our madder dyeing to Ron and Theresa to see
how much our color differs from theirs.  Some of the difference may be in
our idea of red.  Madder red is certainly not cochineal red.

-> Who knows what is in
-> my water; we have a 100 year old-plus water company that adds things,
-> and it changes from day to day.

How interesting.  What kind of things?

From: DEBORAH PULLIAM    To: RON PARKER
I usually soak the dried madder root for a couple of days in plain
water, then grind it in an old blender (I wouldn't use a food one,
especially because the roots really dig into the jar, and sometimes bend
the blades). I don╒t think a food processor would work as well, but I
really don't know. Again, it would really scratch up the bowl. An old
fashioned meat or coffee grinder would probably work best. A newer
coffee grinder (which you can╒t use for grinding wet stuff) just bounces
the stuff around.
Unfortunately Maine water isn't nearly as pure as you╒d think. Ours
(in-town Castine) comes from several sources, including two deep wells
and an open reservoir. But even the pure stuff they sell in bottles is
full of minerals and stuff, so it tastes great but wouldn╒t qualify as
pure for dyeing. Have you tried using your water before it goes through
the softener? I've heard madder works better with harder water.

From: RON PARKER   To: DEBORAH PULLIAM
OK, will try.  We have an old blender with a thick glass container than
would resist the scrtaching just fine.  We were just talking about
getting a new one.  Now (we're both frugal people) we can buy a new one
with a clear conscience, because we are just changing the job of the old
one, not trashing it.  Besides it saves me the work of taking the
electric motor out of it and trying to figure out a use for it.

DP > Have you tried using your water before it goes through
DP > the softener?

I don't think so.  That would be a good idea, because at least the iron
would have been removed.

From: RON PARKER    To: DYERS
For those of you who followed the discussion of old timey madder dyeing,
the book The Dyers Companion, by Elijah Bemis is still available from
Dover Publications, Inc., 31 East 2nd Street, Mineola, NY 11501 for $7.95
plus $2.50 for Book Rate or $4.00 for UPS.  It is book # 20601-7.

From: DICK LINDELL   To: ALL
For all of you who have been dinking around with Madder for dyeing, I thought
you might be interested in what J. & R. Bronson (weavers &c) said about
Madder in 1817.  I quote:
   Madder.-This is an important and valuable plant; which is used in dyeing
red, cinnamon, &c.  The root, which is the only part made use of, is long and
slender, of a red color, both on the outside and within, excepting a whitish
pith that runs through the middle of it.  The only precaution in selecting
the common ground madder, is that it should appear of a bright yellowish
red-brown, and it should smell sweet and fresh.
   The madder plant may be cultivated in many parts of the U.S. to advantage.
It is three years after the first root is set in the ground, before it comes
to maturity:  they may be placed 4 feet apart in the first setting them in
the ground, and should be hoed the first year to keep them clear from weeds.
If they are planted on a rich deep soil, which is best,the roots will extend
to a depth of two feet or more, and yeild more abundantly than almost any
other vegatable.  The time of taking them out of the ground is in the months
of September and October, they are then carefully assorted and washed in
clean cold water and dried by a stove heat, ready for pounding.
   The first pounding separates and brings into the form of a powder the
smallest fibres of the roots, with the skin or husk of the larger ones,
and any earth which may have been left adhering thereto.  This powder
being sifted, is then packed separately in casks and sold at a low price
and used for cheap, dark colors.
   A second pounding separates about one third of the remaining part of
the larger roots, and this being sifted and packed separately, is called
ordinary powder.  The third and last pounding comprehends the residue
and bright part of the roots;  this is called crop madder, which produces
the best of reds.  This kind of madder is as yet scarce in this country.
     Madder gives to woollen cloth, prepared with allum and tartar, the
most durable of all reds, though not so bright as the cochineal scarlet;
yet the red of madder has this important advantage, by enduring to be
washed with soap, without producing any material change in color:  where-
as the cochineal scarlet by the same means used, becomes tarnished.
   Those who dye the best madder red, are very careful to keep the liquor
of a heat considerably below that of boiling, encreasing the fire towards
the end, so that it may boil only a minute or two before the woollen is
taken out.  Should the liquor be suffered to boil for a long time, it
would extract the light brown matter contained in madder, which would
change it to a dull dark red

  This is the end of the Bronson info on Madder.  The punctuation and
spelling are directly from the book.  Thought you might get a little
better flavor of the book from this.

   WBG
       Dick Lindell

From: RON PARKER    To:DICK LINDELL
Thanx for the madder info Dick.  The stuff about the pounding and
sieving is especially informative.  I'm going to gather all the madder
messages into a file and put it in the files area.