Hacker Chronicles 2/HACKER2.BIN/415.SF018069.TXT

Text File | 1993-02-05 | 18KB | 438 lines

SF-LOVERS Digest           Thursday, 4 Feb 1993        Volume 18 : Issue 69

Today's Topics:

          Books - Donaldson (9 msgs) & Herbert & Jeter (2 msgs) &
                  Longyear & May

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Date: 20 Jan 93 05:09:04 GMT
From: atlantis![e-mail]
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Covenant with AIDS

A strange idea (maybe not even an idea - a conceit)came to me a couple of
nights ago.

Would Thomas Covenant have worked with AIDS instead of leprosy?

I realize that when Donaldson originally wrote the trilogy, AIDS wasn't
extant (was it?), and that he was more familiar with leprosy from his
father's work, but still, I got to wondering.

He wouldn't be able to determine the effects of the hurtloam as quickly,
since I don't think AIDS has as perceptible symptoms as leprosy.  And the
constant need for VSE's in leprosy doesn't really have an equivalent in
AIDS.  But a good writer could, perhaps, think of equivalents or merely
obviate the need for them.

Any other comments?

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 93 02:23:43 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Sea Wasp)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Covenant with AIDS

[e-mail] writes:
>
>A strange idea (maybe not even an idea - a conceit)came to me a couple of
>nights ago.
>
>Would Thomas Covenant have worked with AIDS instead of leprosy?

   Interesting thought.

   I'd say, probably yes. The first point of his leprosy was to keep him
separated, through revulsion, from other people. AIDS can certainly
generate such a reaction.
   Second, it was a disease that required constant vigilance in order to
keep the person alive. While AIDS itself won't kill, anyone with it has to
watch out for all sorts of infections; no immune system = no resistance =
sudden death.
   Depending on what stage of AIDS he'd gotten to, there could well be some
overt symptoms that hurtloam would cure immediately. The various cancers
that show up, like Kaposi's Sarcoma, would disappear. Coughs, etc., would
go away. Yes, I think that would work.

   Where AIDS versus leprosy would fail would be in the SECOND trilogy. If
the Creator didn't cure Covenant's AIDS (especially if it was fairly
advanced to begin with) at the end of the first, Covenant would never have
lived the ten years until the second, let alone be in any shape to do the
adventures in the Wounded Land without hurtloam.

   And if his AIDS *had* been cured, he'd be a medical celebrity.

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 93 16:15:54 GMT
From: (David Ingham)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Covenant with AIDS

Hmmm.  I don't think the story as written would work with AIDS for
leperosy.  I think one of the things that make leprosy work that would not
work with AIDS is the health of the person.  With AIDS your health declines
and you eventualy must be under constant medical care, there is not much
the victim can do to slow down the effects of the disease.  With leperosy
the disease is much more hidden and controllable by the victim.  The will
of Covenant to keep up his very strict regiment of survival is key to the
story.

So, while a story could be written with Covenant with AIDS ( or cancer, or
herpes or whatever), it would not be the same story because the facts of
the illness are different.

David Ingham

------------------------------

Date: 22 Jan 93 22:18:49 GMT
From: tcnet!newave!kirk![e-mail] (THORIN NIELSON)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Covenant with AIDS

Just a few thoughts, disagreements, etc.

I mostly agree with SW on this point, but the one symptom that AIDS does
not have a correlation with leprosy, of course, is the NUMBNESS.

This is absolutely vital to the story as SRD wrote it. The stigmata
associated with AIDS would be appropriate, perhaps MORE appropriate when
referring to his dealings with his unsympathetic neighbours. I could never
quite grasp why their hate was so deep.

But the numbness, that's what made the story special. That's what made you
almost willing to forgive the obscenity of Lena's rape. I was fascinated by
my 'near' grasp of his ailment, but my very small understanding of tactile
deprivation. (Cold hands and fallen asleep limbs notwithstanding).

In the Land, Covenant had to learn to FEEL again.

> Where AIDS versus leprosy would fail would be in the SECOND trilogy. If
> the Creator didn't cure Covenant's AIDS (especially if it was fairly
> advanced to begin with) at the end of the first, Covenant would never
> have lived the ten years until the second, let alone be in any shape to
> do the adventures in the Wounded Land without hurtloam.
>
> And if his AIDS *had* been cured, he'd be a medical celebrity.

Invalid argument.

To jog your memory, Covenant was NOT 'healed' of his leprosy, whatever
other physical ailment corresponded as he passed from world to world.
Therefore, if he was healed in the Land of AIDS, it probably would NOT have
been manifest in the 'real' world.

Thorin Nielson

------------------------------

Date: 23 Jan 93 02:02:22 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Sea Wasp)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Covenant with AIDS

tnielson@kirk (THORIN NIELSON) writes:
>> Where AIDS versus leprosy would fail would be in the SECOND trilogy. If
>> the Creator didn't cure Covenant's AIDS (especially if it was fairly
>> advanced to begin with) at the end of the first, Covenant would never
>> have lived the ten years until the second, let alone be in any shape to
>> do the adventures in the Wounded Land without hurtloam.
>
>>And if his AIDS *had* been cured, he'd be a medical celebrity.
>
>Invalid argument.

Don't take this as a flame...

BUT FOR GOG'S SAKE, *READ* what is written.

>To jog your memory, Covenant was NOT 'healed' of his leprosy,

   Obviously I know that. However, what I was referring to was that the
Creator OFFERED to do so - to HEAL Covenant, in this world, in return for
his services.
   Covenant, as we know, refused this for his own reasons. However, what I
was saying above, was that if the Creator did NOT heal Covenant - that is,
if Covenant refused him in the AIDS condition, Covenant would not have
SURVIVED until the second trilogy.

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 93 16:40:40 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Matthew P Wiener)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Covenant with AIDS

I have not read any Donaldson - I'm just making medical commentaries.

(David Ingham) writes:
>Hmmm.  I don't think the story as written would work with AIDS for
>leperosy.  I think one of the things that make leprosy work that would not
>work with AIDS is the health of the person.  With AIDS your health
>declines and you eventualy must be under constant medical care, there is
>not much the victim can do to slow down the effects of the disease.  With
>leperosy the disease is much more hidden and controllable by the victim.
>The will of Covenant to keep up his very strict regiment of survival is
>key to the story.  So, while a story could be written with Covenant with
>AIDS ( or cancer, or herpes or whatever), it would not be the same story
>because the facts of the illness are different.

The course of HIV infection is not always so relentlessly glum as you are
portraying.  Those who do best have a strong will to fight the disease, and
adopt strict regimens to protect themselves and their immune systems.
Serious threats are a constant danger by the time the infection has
progressed to what is called AIDS, but even so, it can be a few years
before constant medical attention is needed.

Matthew P Wiener
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 93 18:22:16 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Michael P Collins)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Covenant with AIDS

[e-mail] writes:
> He wouldn't be able to determine the effects of the hurtloam as quickly,
> since I don't think AIDS has as perceptible symptoms as leprosy.  And the
> constant need for VSE's in leprosy doesn't really have an equivalent in
> AIDS.  But a good writer could, perhaps, think of equivalents or merely
> obviate the need for them.

I don't think so.  The real essence of Covenant's Leprosy is delineated in
LFB.  Remember the doctor saying that Leprosy is not a "Romantic" disease?

Because of his leprosy, Covenant becomes a pariah, reviled by all the
people in this world.  Regardless of how noble an action on Earth is, he is
never accepted by his fellows on Earth.  In contrast, any action he takes
in the Land, regardless of how reprehensible it is, is accepted.

The other little detail is that leprosy is a...hmm..."Cynic's" disease.
Like Donaldson says, fantasy is the death of lepers; you end up hungering
for everything you cannot have because your survival depends on a strict
regimen of self-discipline.

Just a thought here, but Donaldson keeps repeating that Leprosy is an
arrestable disease.  Covenant can live a (relatively) normal life so long
as he VSE's and takes his drugs.  That's one of the major underlying themes
of Covenant: his survival hinges on his free-will.  HE decides whether he's
going to live or die.  That's a liberty robbed from AIDS patients.

No, I don't think it would work. Too many of the major themes would be
destroyed.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Jan 93 14:08:02 GMT
From: [e-mail] (jerry cullingford)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Covenant with AIDS

[e-mail] writes:
>Would Thomas Covenant have worked with AIDS instead of leprosy?
>
>He wouldn't be able to determine the effects of the hurtloam as quickly,
>since I don't think AIDS has as perceptible symptoms as leprosy.  And the
>constant need for VSE's in leprosy doesn't really have an equivalent in
>AIDS.  But a good writer could, perhaps, think of equivalents or merely
>obviate the need for them.

No, I don't think it could have worked.

Leprosy provided the basic reason why Covenant didn't believe in the Land
(which in turn is the basic drive behind most of his actions); Nerves don't
regenerate; Leprosy can't be reversed. Failure to be constantly alert will
cause further irreversible damage, so ignoring it is extremely dangerous;
You can't pretend it doesn't exist, even for a while.

Therefore a setting where nerves have regenerated must be unreal, and
dangerous to accept.

Now contrast that with AIDS; AFAIK, it's the secondary infections that
cause the problems, and they can often be treated. So presumably it can be
possible to have stable periods between secondary infections, and maybe
even improve during such periods.

Now try that in the Land; there's nothing that says visible symptoms cannot
be treated, no immediately, constantly apparent indication to contradict
the reality of the land, and no reason not to accept the Land as a
pleasant, if temporary, escape.

Think of Hile Troy... A character with AIDS would probably have even less
difficulty in accepting the land; and as much, or more reason to be
grateful.

Jerry Cullingford
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 93 17:05:39 GMT
From: [e-mail] (John A. Munson)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Stephen R. Donaldson's "Gap" series

I would be interested in reading the comments of/hearing from subscribers
to this group concerning Stephen R. Donaldson's "Gap" series.

I have enjoyed the first three parts and have noted that S.R.D. has lost
none of his ability (or predisposition) to infuse his characters with
levels of angst which would be guaranteed to destroy ordinary mortals....

If you would like to carry on a discussion regarding this topic, but don't
think it's worth the bandwidth to be on this group, please consider e-mail.

John A. Munson
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 1 Feb 93 17:22:03 GMT
From: [e-mail] (christopher.j.lentz)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Frank Herbert

[e-mail] (Robert Nevitt) writes:
>Does anybody know of any good Frank Herbert books?  I just got done
>reading Dune Messiah, and I'm about to start Children Of Dune... are there
>any other books by him that are good like these?

I'd suggest "The White Plague".  It's about a genetic engineer that creates
a plague in response to the IRA's killing of his family.  AND it isn't part
of a long series, like DUNE.

Also, I really enjoyed a series that Herbert did with Bill Ransom.  It
included "The Jesus Incident" and "The Lazarus Effect".  I believe these
two were precursed by a solo work by Herbert called "Destination Void"
which (if I remember correctly) was more to the hard sf side.  I didn't
enjoy it as much and it isn't necessary to read it before the other two.

Christopher J. Lentz
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 93 07:24:34 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Michael I. Lichter)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: K.W. Jeter

A while back I read K.W. Jeter's book _Dr. Adder_, the only book I can
think of that's made me sick, and the only story I can remember that's
given me nightmares besides Harlan Ellison's "The Glass Goblin" (from
_Deathbird Stories_).  The book's another near-future thing centered in
"The Interface", the high-tech red-light crazy zone where sleazy LA meets
uptight Orange County.  Dr. Adder is a noble mad scientist who makes most
of his money mutilating women on contract (from them, their pimps, or their
men).  The protagonist, a kid, used to work in a rural whorehouse where the
whores were actually gigantic chickens (hens), but takes off to make his
fortune in the big city.  The book is both thoroughly disgusting (I'm not
sure how much of the misogyny is Jeter's and how much is him just trying to
show that our culture is misogynistic) and very powerful.  And remember:
"the prodigal son *is* the fatted calf!".

I bring this up mainly because I was curious about _The Glass Hammer_.  I
have _Farewell Horizontal_ by Jeter, but haven't been able to locate
_Hammer_.  Does anybody know if it's any good, and worth continuing to
scour used book stores for?

Michael

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 93 14:06:35 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Barry Meikle)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: K.W. Jeter

[e-mail] (Michael I. Lichter) writes:
[comments about _Dr. Adder_ deleted]
>I bring this up mainly because I was curious about _The Glass Hammer_.  I
>have _Farewell Horizontal_ by Jeter, but haven't been able to locate
>_Hammer_.  Does anybody know if it's any good, and worth continuing to
>scour used book stores for?

_The Glass Hammer_ is a very nice idea-book.  The epigraph is Gore Vidal
musing that one of the strangenesses of being famous in the age of video is
that you're familiar with what the back of your head looks like.

The story is set in a vaguely cyber-punkish, media-rich world - characters
have their lives monitored and retold to the world by cameras whizzing
around them.  The narrative often slips into video screenplay mode, with no
explanation of events - we just watch what the cameras show us.  Some nice
effects, kind of like a cross between Robbe-Grillet and a Star-Trek script
(and I always liked those ZOOMs and PANs :-) Aside from the play and tricks
of narrative, though, I seem to recall that it's pretty much a bang-'em-up
sf adventure.  Nice ride.

Dick fans might find the book interesting - there's a surprisingly sad,
affectionate portrayal of a character I took to be Philip K. Dick.  He's
attempting the strange, personal task of recreating a shattered
stained-glass window from the millions of fragments.  I believe Jeter knew
Dick during the period when _VALIS_ was under construction/being lived.  (I
have a lurking memory that he may be that Kevin who hopes to confront God
with his stiff dead cat held out before him like a frying pan).  Those who
know (or who've done their homework and read the biographies) feel free to
correct this.

Barry Meikle
University of Toronto Bookstore
214 College Street
Toronto, Ont. M5T 3A1
1-416-978-7925
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 24 Jan 93 21:20:03 GMT
From: [e-mail] (David Lillard)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: B.B.L.


If you ever get the chance to attend a Workshop or talk by Barry B.
Longyear, I *strongly* suggest that you do so.  He is both Entertaining and
Informative.  He's the only speaker I've ever encountered who made the act
of taking a dump both Funny AND Interesting.

BTW, you *might* want to pick up a copy of his Writer's Guide.  It's only
"$10 - cheap".

Disclaimer: The above is *only* my opinion.  I have no connection to Mr.
   Longyear.  I was mearly one of his pleased audience members at this
   weekend's ConFusion.

Best,

Dave

------------------------------

Date: 3 Feb 93 21:51:51 GMT
From: [e-mail] (Chris Dickson)
Reply-to: [e-mail]
Subject: Query - Julian May

I have Read Most of Julian May's books (The Sage of the Exiles, Jack the
Bodyless, etc..), but I have heard "whispers" of titles that have not made
it to New Zealand, Is there anybody out there who has a list of titles, or
knows of any new books, by the author.

Thanks.

Chris Dickson
[e-mail]

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End of SF-LOVERS Digest
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