Day 101 - 10 Mar 95 - Page 33

     
     1        A.  The important fact is that the birds do not suffer.
     2
     3   Q.   Why would you rather they are stunned before slaughter?
     4        A.  So that there is no chance of any suffering.
     5
     6   Q.   So, if they are not stunned then there is a chance of
     7        suffering?
     8        A.  There is a possibility I guess, yes.
     9
    10   Q.   If one per cent of birds were not being stunned before
    11        slaughter, would that concern you?
    12        A.  As long as they were being killed humanely, if they
    13        missed the stunning stage of the process, then I am aware
    14        that it does happen; birds do miss the stunning bath and
    15        they have to be killed humanely.
    16
    17   Q.   Right.  If they are decapitated they take several
    18        minutes to die, do they not?
    19        A.  No, they do not take several minutes to die.
    20
    Q.   Several minutes to brain death?
    22        A.  That is not my understanding, no.
    23
    24   Q.   How long would it be acceptable for you -----
    25
    26   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I think you have got to put it in a positive
    27        way.
    28
    29   MS. STEEL:  I cannot find the right section.  What is your
    30        understanding on how long it takes to brain death?
    31        A.  The birds have both carotid arteries cut which
    32        obviously prevents the supply of oxygen to the brain, so I
    33        would think that brain death occurs in a matter of seconds.
    34
    35   Q.   Seconds?
    36        A.  Yes.
    37
    38   Q.   If it was more than, say, 30 seconds, would that be
    39        something that concerned you?
    40
    MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I am a bit alarmed about the brain death,
    42        because that might include brain stem death which, as we
    43        all know from various unhappy instances which have a lot of
    44        publicity, does not mean there is any sensibility
    45        whatsoever.
    46
    47   MR. RAMPTON:  I really do think that, with this witness, it is
    48        quite right to ask him what his attitudes are to various
    49        animal welfare questions in a general way.  That is
    50        entirely right because his department takes an interest on 
    51        behalf of McDonald's.  It is not, perhaps, a useful use of 
    52        your Lordship's time to question him about matters of brain 
    53        death, brain stem death, or, indeed, death itself, because
    54        these are all highly technical questions.  They may be
    55        better addressed to Dr. Pattison because he has not dealt
    56        with that angle yet.
    57
    58   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I think you could put it in another way.  You
    59        could just suggest to him, although you cannot put your
    60        finger on the exact part, you could suggest to him, if a