Day 205 - 17 Jan 96 - Page 08

     
     1        me on it.  No doubt it will depend on what you are saying
     2        and what, if anything, your application is.
     3
     4   MR. MORRIS:  It is not really an application; it is just
     5        pointing out that we felt that the Plaintiffs were trying
     6        to back track, as far as we are concerned, on their
     7        admission about torture being a matter of opinion --
     8        torture of animals, in the rearing and slaughter -- torture
     9        and murder being matters of opinion; and Mr. Rampton's
    10        helpful identification of the transcript references only
    11        confirms our view that ------
    12
    13   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Where are we going on this, because I do not
    14        understand Mr. Rampton to have admitted that torture was a
    15        matter of opinion.  He said that his clients were prepared
    16        to accept that murder was.  There are a few lines which you
    17        have put on where you have No. 1:  3/10/94, day 30, page 2,
    18        line 49 ---
    19
    20   MR. MORRIS:  Yes.
    21
    22   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  -- where it might be said he was saying that
    23        torture could be a matter of opinion.  But everywhere else
    24        he has distinguished between murder and torture and made it
    25        clear to me, anyway.  I mean, it may be a matter about
    26        which there will be considerable argument at the end, but
    27        the utter indifference part of the pleaded meaning relies
    28        very largely (if not entirely) upon the word "torture",
    29        that I am to infer from that -- because you can only
    30        torture someone if you knowingly inflict pain on them --
    31        that that is where he would argue -- whether his argument
    32        is right or not is not a matter to decide today -- one gets
    33        the utter indifference which appears in the amended
    34        meaning.
    35
    36   MR. MORRIS:  We would say that it is not necessary for us to
    37        argue that point because of the admissions that have been
    38        made.
    39
    40   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  No admission has been made.
    41
    42   MR. MORRIS:  Or the recognition in the opening speech, that
    43        which Mr. Rampton has helpfully provided, page 44.
    44
    45   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  You had better refer me to the places where
    46        you say an admission is made, because there certainly has
    47        been no formal admission.
    48
    49   MR. MORRIS:  I agree.
    50 
    51   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  We had better have it out now, because if you 
    52        are under the impression that an admission has been made, 
    53        when you have said what you want to say, I will ask
    54        Mr. Rampton if he would be kind enough to say, whatever has
    55        been said in the past, what the position is now and from
    56        now on, so that you are under no illusions about it.
    57
    58   MR. MORRIS:  The thing is, we are not making an application that
    59        a formal admission has been made.  What we are trying to do
    60        is to point out that when Mr. Rampton has tried to back