Day 205 - 17 Jan 96 - Page 16
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2 MR. MORRIS: Page 49, in the middle of the page, we said, line
3 23 -----
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5 MR. JUSTICE BELL: I think you have a good point there, if I may
6 say so, because there was the mention on 3rd October 1994
7 which I had at that time forgotten.
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9 MR. MORRIS: We could not find that reference and we felt
10 something was becoming currency which, in fact, we felt was
11 -----
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13 MR. JUSTICE BELL: I think that what I had remembered is what
14 Mr. Rampton had said since ---
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16 MR. MORRIS: Yes.
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18 MR. JUSTICE BELL: -- which are the second and third of the
19 three paragraphs on page 19 of 23rd November 1994 which we
20 looked at a moment or so ago.
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22 MR. MORRIS: Yes. I think that is the point we were trying to
23 make.
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25 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Yes, very well.
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27 MS. STEEL: I do not really want to say much, but I kind of get
28 the impression that the view is that, why are we worried if
29 Mr. Rampton is not objecting to the word "torture", and the
30 part about utterly indifferent. I mean, as far as I am
31 concerned, I do think the Plaintiffs are indifferent and
32 utterly indifferent. I am not particularly worried from
33 one point of view about whether we have to prove that
34 because I think we could prove it quite easily. But (a) it
35 is a matter of opinion, and (b) if Mr. Rampton does make an
36 admission, I think that it should hold because otherwise we
37 are left in the situation of he says one thing one time and
38 then the next time he says something different. We do not
39 actually know what it is that we have to prove while we are
40 in court and whether or not we can prove it. It adds extra
41 length to the case and it just means more work for us
42 anyway.
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44 I do not really understand why it should be felt that a
45 denial on a subsequent date should carry greater weight
46 than a previous admission. To me, the admissions are there
47 in black and white during opening speeches and, clearly, on
48 3rd October and it ought to stand.
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50 MR. JUSTICE BELL: I think I cannot accept that, and this is
51 what concerns me, if that is what you believe, then you
52 must be careful that you do not let good points go, because
53 if I just do not accept that at the end of the day that,
54 short of a formal admission or concession, one cannot think
55 again, I feel you may neglect to put to me the points which
56 you could put at the end of the case.
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58 As I say, I will give Mr. Rampton an opportunity to say
59 whatever he wants to say in a moment, but I think you have
60 to accept that the Plaintiffs are saying that an
