DP Tool Club 8/CDASC08.ISO/VRAC/AZ_TRVL.ZIP/GC_RAFT.TRV

Text File | 1993-09-17 | 28KB | 538 lines

cat grand_canyon_rafting
::Title:        Grand Canyon compilation
::Editor:       Ilana Stern <[e-mail]>
::Filename:     north_america/usa/arizona/grand_canyon_rafting
::Date:         1993 March
::Type:         Compilation
::Compiled by:  Mark Nowak <[e-mail]>
::Compiled by:  Rich Kulawiec <[e-mail]>
::Compiled by:  Ilana Stern <[e-mail]>
::
This and other travel information is available by anonymous ftp from
ccu.umanitoba.ca (130.179.16.8) in the directory /pub/rec-travel.

For more information about the rec.travel archives, contact Brian
Lucas <[e-mail]>.

For comments, questions, or additions to this document, please contact
the author/editor, whose address is given above.

========================================================================
Contents:

Phone numbers / addresses
Oars vs. motor
Experiences
Private vs. commercial trips
========================================================================

## Phone numbers / addresses

For a complete list of companies offering trips within Grand Canyon
National Park, write River Subdistrict, Grand Canyon National Park,
PO Box 129, Grand Canyon AZ  86023.

Diamond River Adventures 602/645-8866

Georgie's Royal River Rats
P. O. Box 12057
Las Vegas, NV 89112-0057
702/798-0602

Sleight Expeditions
P.O. Box 40
St. George, UT  84771-0040
801/673-1200



## Oars vs. motor

From: [e-mail] (Ken Collier)
>From the responses that I got from rec.travel to my posting it
>seems that the oar powered trips are prefered.  True?  I have only
>one week and would like to see the whole length which means a motor-
>ized trip.  How do the two (oar vs. motorized) compare?

Well, I'll give you my BIASED opinion.  Oars are the way to go.  You are on
a smaller boat and therefore more intimate with the river (sometimes too
intimate ;-> ).  Because there are fewer people per boat you have the
opportunity to develop a better friendship with your guide who will be more
inclined to give you a better trip (speculation).  As you have noted, the
trade off is time.  The ideal trip is a 21 day oar trip with several "layover"
days for some of the most incredible hiking in the U.S.  Many of these hikes
can only be taken from river level (i.e., no rim access).  Next best IMHO, is
a 17 day oar trip.  Not as much hiking but you see the whole canyon and
there is some hiking (no layovers).  To the credit of the motor rigs you will
get some hiking in on those trips since they can move down the river as fast
as they want to.

From: (a. m. rushton) <[e-mail]>
I did the 12 day trip from Lees Ferry to mile 188 by rowing (non-motorized)
raft.  If you have ~6 days, I would recommend a rowing trip from the
Ranch to mile 188.  I thought the second half of the canyon was the better
half, but I'm glad I did the whole thing.

From: [e-mail] (Mike McNelly)
Oar boats come in two varieties:  Oar framed inflatable rafts and
dories.  In either case the boats are about 16-17' in length.  Your
guide will do the oaring.

[Editor's note;  many trips using inflatable rafts use a combination
of oared boats (the guide rows) and paddle boats (everyone paddles,
the guide coordinates things), and passengers choose each day if they
want to work a paddle or sit back and be chauffered.]

Motorized trips can be in rafts that size but with 12 people I suspect
that they're describing G-rigs, which are about 39' long.  They're
typically a cheaper trip.

Like airplanes, the bigger the craft the more it takes to bump it
around.  Thus if you're interested in exciting rides through the rapids
you'll enjoy the smaller crafts more.  If you don't want to get too wet,
you'll like the big G-rigs.  Both are safe rides, though.  Rafting
accidents with injuries are surprisingly rare in the Canyon.  A clue:
most of the guides on the bigger rafts take their private trips on the
little ones.

If you take the bigger rafts, be prepared to listen to a motor for 7
days (and smell it).  The oared boats are definitely superior if you're
interested in serenity but they can't get down the river as fast as a
boat with a motor.

From: [e-mail] (Rich Kulawiec)
>Oh, what's the general rec.boats.paddle consensus about this?
Eugene, I'm not sure we have a consensus.  Well, perhaps we do on one point:
I don't think any of us like those mondo motorized huge rafts that ply the
canyon and purport to give tourists a "whitewater" experience.  They're noisy,
they pollute the air, and they're a hazard to boaters in smaller craft.

From: [e-mail] (Rick L. Gordon)
Anyway my suggestion is an oar powered trip. I have done the Canyon three
times on private trips - a 21 day, an 18, and a 14. All were good, but the
longer the better. Don't split the canyon into two trips! There are great
rapids below Phantom and great scenery, but you will miss the inner canyon
- Sockdalager, Hance, the Little Colorado, Redwall, Vassie's paradise,
Nankoweep, etc. If you do the upper half, you won't see Tapeats, Deer
Creek, Crystal, Lava, Horn, HAVASU!!!!!,Matcat, etc.


## Experiences

From: [e-mail] (Seenu Banda ~)
I went on a 5 day rafting trip in Grand Canyons last year. The name
of the company is something Adventures. If you want it, I can look it
up at home.

The trip was great. I highly recommend it to anyone who likes that
kind of stuff. If you plan a trip with 50 people I recommend

        - company's paddlers:  through some rapids you need help!

        - 5 day max trip:  even 3.5 day trip will give you a good
                           trip through the canyons. For some people
                           5 days will be too long. Imagine no TV,
                           no phone, no news, no sports.. and add
                           physical exhaustion through constant alternate
                           cold water showers and hot Sun burning in the
                           rapids.

        - an extra day of rest in Vegas or some place after the trip:
                           you will really be tired!.

You should also go in a nice weather. When it is not too hot and when
water is not too cold. Ask the rafting company for details. Of course,
you would not be able to plan for storms, especially when you have to
plan months ahead. Enjoy!

From: [e-mail] (Julie Kucera)
My husband and I went to the Grand Canyon (and many other nat'l parks
out that way) last year in celebration of our 5th anniversary, and it
was one of the best vacations we've ever had.

I have a list of River Concessioners that operate on the Colorado River
through the Grand Canyon, and the easiest thing for me to do would be to
FAX it to you.  Do you have a FAX number?

I will say that we started planning our trip about this time last year for
a early June departure, and many of the places we called were already full.
We were both very happy with our choice, though.   We went with Diamond
River Adventures, because they had openings and because it was one of the
more reasonably priced ones.

We didn't care whether it was oars or motorized, though they kinda recom-
mended motorized for a first-timer (which we both were).  We ended up
going motorized b/c it's the only way we could do a half-river (from the
uppermost put-in point (Lee's Ferry?) to Phantom Ranch) in the time we
had to spare (we had a lot of other places to see and things to do).
We did a 4-day (really only 3.5 on the river, b/c they had to give us
time to hike *out* of the canyon before sundown :-).  To do the same
distance on oar-powered might be the 5-day you are looking for...

It was nice to do the motorized and be freed up for picture-taking
and rested up for volleyball and side hikes when you reached lunch/
sleeping destinations.  Something to consider, I suppose...

Diamond River Adventures' phone number is [phone].

One other thing -- Diamond did a fair amount of stopping for hikes, etc,
and seemed to get some of the best lunch/camp spots on the river.  You will
see other rafters go by, and they seemed to be in much more of a hurry.
Wish I could remember the names of some of the ones that we saw fly by us
as we were playing volleyball in Red Wall Cavern (great fun!)...  I wouldn't
recommend them (personal preference to see and do other things besides
just paddle or ride down a river).

From: [e-mail] (Steve Golton)
I took an 8 day (motor powered) trip down the Canyon during August last
year. It was the most memorable 8 days of my life.

The company I went with was "Arizona River Runners". At the time I
booked the trip I didn't have access to this system, so basically took
pot luck. The company could'nt have been better. Right from the first
phone call the people there were only too anxious to help.

I had several long phone calls with them trying to get a feeling for
what the trip was like & the various alternatives available.

The actual trip itself was well run. The leaders knew the river, it's
history and the wildlife. We took hikes into side canyons normally
twice per day, and this always gave us something new to see (from
waterfalls, to spectacular views of the river and also fossils).

The food was excellent, well prepared and varied (at times it was hard
to believe that it wasn't being flown in secretly at night !!).

I felt that the 8 days (motor powered) was just right. It gave time to
unwind and to really enjoy the river AND the canyon. Obviously coming
from Europe meant that I had longer to spend anyway so perhaps this
influenced my feelings.

From: (a. m. rushton) <[e-mail]>
I had a very good experience with Sleight Expeditions.  Email me if you don't
have their address/phone number and I'll look it up at home.  You could
probably arrange a 5-6 day paddle trip for halfway (Lees Ferry to Phantom
Ranch or from the Ranch to mile 188)  A motor trip could do the whole thing
in that time.

I did the 12 day trip from Lees Ferry to mile 188 by rowing (non-motorized)
raft.  If you have ~6 days, I would recommend a rowing trip from the
Ranch to mile 188.  I thought the second half of the canyon was the better
half, but I'm glad I did the whole thing.

From: [e-mail] (Sheldon)
I went on an 8-day trip about 18 months ago with Canyon Explorations, and they
were really good people! They had one "paddle boat" that one could switch in
and out of. Most fun I've ever had!
I don't know if they offer 5 day trips, but a 3 or 4 day trip might be a little
too short, in my opinion. You'd be amazed how hard it is to leave once you get
into the wilds of the canyon!

From: [e-mail] (Rich Kulawiec)
My personal advice, which is worth what you're paying for it, is to
paddle the boats yourself, and spend as much time as possible in the Canyon.
It won't be easy, but there is nothing like drifting along quietly
in the midst of nowhere, or digging in hard to blast through a big hole.
If any of your prospective guests are curious about what it would be like,
recommend that they take a day trip sometime this summer on a similar
river to get a hint of what it would be like.  For example, the lower New
River, in West Virginia, is sometimes called "The Grand Canyon of the East",
because its hydrographic characteristics are somewhat like the Colorado's.
Anyone who rafts the lower New and loves it will enjoy the Canyon; anyone
who gets freaked out by its 8-foot standing waves is probably not going
to like being in the Canyon very much.  I would guess that the American
in California, the Royal Gorge of the Arkansas in Colorado, and the upper
Hudson in New York might also be comparable in size to the Colorado.

From: Sea Bass ([e-mail])
I know guides who've worked for ARTA and they seem to be a very
together company. Keep in mind they run lots of different rivers,
so the gudies might not be as intimate with the history and
geology etc. of the Grand Canyon.

I have always heard good things about Sobek, but have nothing specific
to tell you on them.

From: [e-mail] (Ken Collier)
Having worked on the Grand I have made many friends who are still working as
river guides.  My favorite company is Expeditions out of Flagstaff.  These
guys are into showing their customers a great time from the food to the day
hikes, and of course the whitewater.  However, I'm not sure if Expeditions
has any motor rigs.  Furthermore, since I've been out of the commercial
scene for several years I don't have any idea what prices are like.  Canyoneers
is another company that has some great boatpersons (somehow boat people just
doesn't sound politically correct).  They too are based in Flagstaff and
they run motor rigs or oar rigs.  There are some companys out of Page that
have been around for many years.  One that comes to mind is owned by
Georgie White, a spunky river runner who is now in her 70's(?)  I don't know
anything about her company but you might want to get a Page,AZ phone directory
and call for info.  I think she only runs motor rigs.

>If I rafted just 1/2 of the canyon is the upper or lower half better
>(more rapids, more beautiful formations, camp sites etc.)?

The most exciting rapids (Crystal and Lava) are below Phantom Ranch (1/2 way)
If you are unable to run the entire river I recommend hiking in on the
Kaibab or Bright Angel (~9 miles) and meeting the trip at Phantom Ranch.  This
is typical.  From here you will travel through the deepest part of the Inner
Gorge and will get to experience the most beautiful places in the Canyon.

>What else do I need to know (I have rafted on the Chattooga before)?

As you ask for information from each of the outfitters be sure and ask for
an agenda so that you can get a feel for the balance between "on river" time
and "off river" time.  And most importantly, how well you can expect to
be fed.

From: [e-mail] (David Herberg)
Small corrections:

[e-mail] (Ken Collier) writes:
> There are some companys out of Page that have been around for many
> years.  One that comes to mind is owned by Georgie White, a spunky
> river runner who is now in her 70's(?)  I don't know anything about
                                 ^^^^ she's going on 86 this year!
> her company but you might want to get a Page, AZ phone directory
                                          ^^^^^^^^ Las Vegas, NV
> and call for info.  I think she only runs motor rigs.
                                            ^^^^^^^^^^ right!

From: [e-mail] (Dennis Schultz)
        Yes, Georgie White is quite spunky, unfortunately a little less so,
these days.  I had alittle encounter with her down by the put-in at
Lee's Ferry back in May of '89.  We had had a birthday party for me the
night before, and me and a buddy of mine (who shall remain nameless) passed
out down by the river(in order to watch all our gear,i.e. we couldn't
find our way back to camp).  About an hour before dawn, I heard this noise
somewhere nearby.  Since we had failed to cleanup and stowe gear properly,
I naturally assumed it was some critter gittin' into our food supply.
Being sleepy (i.e. lazy), and de facto group leader, I asked my buddy to
investigate.  Being sleepy (i.e. also lazy), instead of investigating, he
simply threw a rock at the source and the noise stopped.
        At dawn we awoke to the sound of Georgie's voice, complaining to her
compatriots of being hit in the head by a rock about an hour earlier.
She had made the mistake of camping next to us drunken, suspicious, rock-
throwing rowdies.  We immediately went to her and apologized profusely.
My buddy even had the nerve to ask her to have his picture taken with her.
She graciously complied.  She IS quite the lady, and actually stil very
spunky (the rock fortunately only grazed her!), but I think she takes
more care in choosing her camping spot these days!

From: [e-mail] (Mike McNelly)
I've rafted the river 3 times in the past 3 years in oar framed rafts
but never with commercial guides so I can't comment on the companies.
You might try calling the ranger at Lee's Ferry, Grand Canyon National
Park, to get a personal recommendation.  Lee's Ferry is the usual put

Either half of the trip will have big water in places. You'll probably
see slightly more big water in the second half but it's a close call.
The scenery is different for both halves but each is spectacular in
its own way. I'd be hard pressed to make a recommendation either way.

On a 7 day trip you probably will be limited in the amount of off-river
hiking simply because of time constraints.  Any extra time you can
afford is well worth it.

From: [e-mail] (Steve Susswein)
I'd definitely recommend *against* Dvorak's.  I'll spare you all the gory
details, but the end result of the trip I booked through him was that I
testified at the trial of a fellow customer who was sueing him.

From: [e-mail] (Rick L. Gordon)
I believe the group that runs the Grand is no longer ARTA. AZRA
bought out ARTA years ago. ARTA mainly does tours in northern UTAH -
Green, Ladore, Yampa, etal.

Back in the days that I did some commercial rafting (Assistant Boatman
for ARTA) some of the good rafting groups were OARS, Grand Canyon Dories,
the outfit owned by the guy that Seldom Scence was based on (can't
remember the name - Hatch?).

From: [e-mail] (Tom Anderson)
I recommend ARTA.  For years they have been very respectful of western
rivers and staffed with courtious, competent guides.
As for the other point brought to light in this string regarding motor
boats and comercial outfitters, as long as Utah keeps electing Orin
Hatch to the Senate, there will always be motor boats and comercial
outfitters in the canyon.  Hatch's father or uncle (or both) founded
Hatch River Tours in Vernal Utah.  They have the highest number of
user days of any outfitter on the river.

From: [e-mail] (Rex Sanders)
I've been down the Canyon twice in 18 months with OARS on research trips -
once with oar boats (during non-motor season), once on a big motor rig.
OARS did a great job.  The oar-powered trip was MUCH nicer than the motor
trip.  Worked our b*tts off on both trips, but there are much worse places
to work hard.

From: [e-mail] (Mary Koenig)

I went down the Grand Canyon in October with Sleight Expeditions. This is
an old company on the Grand Canyon started by Ken Sleight who used to
do Glen Canyon and led the battle to try and save the Canyon from
Glen Canyon damm. His son runs the business now and I thought they
did a first class trip. Nothing fancy but a great group of guides who
make you feel at home. For more info contact:

    Sleight Expeditions
    P.O. Box 40
    St. George, UT  84771-0040
    phone:  [phone]


## Private vs. commercial trips

If you are reading this file, you are probably not planning a private
trip.  Unless you have considerable whitewater experience, you will
want to go with a commercial outfit.

What follows is some philosophy and argument.

From: [e-mail] (Lee Story)
[e-mail] (Mike Hejl) writes:
> As an aside, several of the companies we have corresponded with have sent
> information about a proposed law which would effectively eliminate
> concessionaires in the National Parks.  This would devastate the guided
> tours (like these river trips) and put this type of experience out of
> reach for many people.  Anyone have more information?

You may find little sympathy for this position in rec.boats.paddle,
since many of us have lobbied for years in our small ways to eliminate
the concessionaires.  No, I don't want to make it infeasible for most
people to float the Grand.  I very much DO want to see motorized rafts
banned from the park, accommodations limited to camping in ALL
National Parks, much greater concern for preservation, etc. etc.  None
of this should keep you from taking a (guided or unguided) trip down
the canyon.  Enjoy your trip!

Check in advance whether your rafting company is really offering an
"oar-powered" trip and not an oar-plus-outboard one which rushes you
through the more placid sections.

Even if all commercial trips were ended (FAT CHANCE), it's not at all
infeasible for anyone with enough interest to learn to handle a raft
or hard boat themselves, and run the Grand in a few months or years.
If you want instant aesthetics, visit an art gallery; a quick thrill,
try a water slide.  If you want to float great rivers, be prepared to
invest some time and effort. And make the trade-off in favor of
preservation of our great natural areas.  Please.

From: [e-mail] (Rich Kulawiec)
I think we have a range of opinions about the next smaller craft, the
commercially run rigs.  On the one hand, these outfitters provide a way
for some people to experience the canyon in a relatively safe fashion,
and those people may become interested in preserving what's left of it.
The outfitters provide work for various river junkies and (to a certain
extent) work to educate the public and preserve the canyon.  On the other
hand, some of the outfitters are not as careful as they should be about
restricting the number of person-days spent in the canyon.  They're also
somewhat outspoken about water release schedules, and it could be argued
that they overemphasize the adrenaline factor.

Private boaters find it very difficult to run the canyon because of the
permit system; those able to travel on short notice may be lucky enough
to grab a spot that someone else has relinquished, but otherwise...
This results in some friction between private boaters and outfitters.

Water release schedules are also a bone of contention; it seems to be
clear that certain kinds of releases can damage the canyon's ecology,
yet those releases continue to occur.  In some quarters, paddlers
are blamed for this, as if it was a paddler's idea to dam the river,
or as if all paddlers were not ecologically aware (at least to a
certain extent).  What seems to be needed is a compromise wherein
necessary releases are done in the way that least damages the
environment, and if possible, such that higher flows can be used
for whitewater recreation.   Those participating in whitewater sports
in the canyon need to make every effort to alleviate their impact
on the canyon -- the old pack it in, pack it out ethic.

It's unfortunate that so many man-made intrusions have occured in the
canyon.  If we had it to do over again, I think we would probably all
agree that we'd rather not seen any dams at all, we'd build fewer
trails, we'd try to do more education.  The canyon's ecosystems would
be in a more pristine state, and paddlers could take their chances with
natural flows.  But unless a way to turn back the clock is found, we
will have to work with what previous generations have left us.

From: [e-mail] (Kelly Shuldberg)
I have some 60 trips through Grand Canyon.  It's been a few years since I
worked for a small river company that ran trips in Grand Canyon, but since
I was there for almost ten years, this thread really caught my eye.
Diamond was the company that bought out our little outfit (Harris
Expeditions--started by Don Harris in 1939).  Colorado River and Trail is
Ron Smith, I believe.  I don't know the third name.  The folks I'd
reccoment are Moki Mac or Slight River Expeditions (this might not be their
current name).  Ken Slight is the model for Seldom Seen Smith.  The company
is now run by his son, Mark.  I have some good friends that still run for
both of these outfits.

The upper canyon includes Little Colorado, the Upper Granite Gorge, and
Marble Canyon.  It also include hiking out at Phantom Ranch.  The lower
canyon includes the Middle and Lower Granite Gorges, several nice hikes
like Tapeats Creek, Thunder River, Deer Creek, and dependign on who you're
with, a possible helicopter ride out below Lava Falls.  There are big
rapids in both sections of the canyon, but probably more seriously
dangerous rapids in the lower half (Horn Creek in low water, Crystal Creek
and Lava Falls at any water stage come to mind).

>>   As an aside, several of the companies we have corresponded with have sent
>>   information about a proposed law which would effectively eliminate
>>   concessionaires in the National Parks.  This would devastate the guided
>>   tours (like these river trips) and put this type of experience out of
>>   reach for many people.  Anyone have more information?
>>
>>You may find little sympathy for this position in rec.boats.paddle,
>>since many of us have lobbied for years in our small ways to eliminate
>>the concessionaires.  No, I don't want to make it infeasible for most
>>people to float the Grand.  I very much DO want to see motorized rafts
>>banned from the park, accommodations limited to camping in ALL
>>National Parks, much greater concern for preservation, etc. etc.

>>Eugene, I'm not sure we have a consensus.  Well, perhaps we do on one point:
>>I don't think any of us like those mondo motorized huge rafts that ply the
>>canyon and purport to give tourists a "whitewater" experience.  They're noisy,
>>they pollute the air, and they're a hazard to boaters in smaller craft.

Harris ran both motor and oar powered trips.  Motors can be obnoxious, and
motor trups can be good or bad depending on the philosophy of the
outfitter.  The wham-bam-thank-you-mam trips that go from Lees Ferry to
Lava Falls in five days are like bus tours from hell.  We used to spend 10
days for the same distance with a motor, 16 with oars.  Even on motor trips
we spent a lot of time just floating, experiencing the canyon. I'd like to
think we ran high-quality trips in both modes.  We always did a lot of
hiking, we always talked to people about wilderness and about preventing
proposed dams and othe projects that would destroy the canyon.  We wre
always courteous to other trips, both commercial and private, oar or
motor-powered.

About private vs. commercial use: My experience was that the commercial
people are *much* better prepared to run with good, safe equipment, and
much better prepared and more highly motivated to keep the canyon clean
(hey, these guys have to live there!).  Typically, they are much better
trained and know the canyon better than private groups.  I can't count the
number of private trips I saw who ran with old, poorly maintained boats
(good stuff is expensive!), or who, once they got out of sight of the
ranger at Lees Ferry, found it too much trouble to carry out their waste,
ashes, and garbage.  Many's the time I picked up junk left by private trips
and carried it out, or stumbled across shit and toilet paper back in the
tamarisk left by people who were too lazy or stupid to know better.
Commercial guides are much less prone to this sort of thing because they
have to come back to this same campsite perhaps many times in a single
season.

And the hazards of large craft?  Maybe if the boat is run by a complete
bozo (I can think of a few outfitters who employ these people on a routine
basis).  But I can also recall many times when I've gotten below Crystal or
Lava or some other nasty rapid and found the same oar-powered boats who
flipped us off upstream more than a little happy to have us pull their
people, all in shock, and equipment, or what we can find, anyway, out of
the water, get their helpless boats over to the side, and tip them back
over.  For the most part, commercial oar folks know all too well how
helpful a big boat can be after a disaster to behave poorly beforehand.
Really, a little common courtesy is all that's necessary.  I know I felt
more secure knowing that Bob or Clair Quist was waiting for me downstream
in their big, obnoxious, noisy motor boats when I had to row through Horn
Creek at 4500 cfs!


oak: /users/sequoia/dfinkel/Download/Arizona%