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$Unique_ID{bob01215}
$Pretitle{}
$Title{Nixon Tapes, The
April 16, 1973. (4:07pm - 4:35pm)}
$Subtitle{}
$Author{Various}
$Affiliation{}
$Subject{john
dean
nixon
pres
right
inaudible
unintelligible
that's
told
bob}
$Date{1974}
$Log{}
Title: Nixon Tapes, The
Author: Various
Date: 1974
April 16, 1973. (4:07pm - 4:35pm)
Meeting: President Nixon and John Dean, EOB Office
Pres. Nixon: Hi, John.
John Dean: Mr. President.
Pres. Nixon: Well, have you had a busy day?
John Dean: Yeah, I have been - I spent most of the day on trying to put
together a statement that I think you could come out -
apparently some other people have done some work on - I haven't
been working with them. Presumably we are all kind of driving
at the same point. I was working on a draft when you called.
Pres. Nixon: Listen, I've got to see Rogers in just a few minutes so let me
have (unintelligible)
John Dean: Well, I think - I was calling Dick Moore in on it, but Dick is
working on it with these others.
Pres. Nixon: That's good. What would be best? Rather than giving it to me
piecemeal, why don't you put one together?
John Dean: It's got a strong thrust which puts you -
Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible)
John Dean: There is a tough question here - the degree of biting the bullet
right at this hour. Now there is one paragraph -
Pres. Nixon: There is a question of timing -
John Dean: It is a question of timing but it is also a question - I have one
paragraph in here that says what you are doing as a result of
what has come to your attention and some of the things that
Petersen has told you.
Pres. Nixon: Uh, huh.
John Dean: And one of the points is that it provides that all members of the
White House staff will be called before the Grand Jury
effective immediately. They will be on administrative leave
until such time as the Grand Jury completes its work. Now here
is the tough paragraph thus far: "In this connection, I have
not spared my closest staff advisers and included in this
action are H.R. Haldeman, Assistant to the President, John
Ehrlichman, Assistant to the President, and John Dean, Counsel
to the President." Now you can do that or leave that out and
let them guess who is on administrative leave.
Pres. Nixon: Anybody called before the Grand Jury?
John Dean: That's right. That means that no man -
Pres. Nixon: You can bite the bullet on Dean, Haldeman, and Ehrlichman until
then, huh? On the other hand, if (unintelligible) is lying -
have you talked to (unintelligible)
John Dean: No, I haven't.
Pres. Nixon: I have a sensation that he is lying right now but the trouble
with that is there might be some confusion. Petersen says,
incidentally, on your letter - he thinks it is probably better
to get a letter in hand and get the grievances out.
Pres. Nixon: I said, "Well, what do you think about it? I was considering
your returning and I don't want to do anything to jeopardize
your rights. He feels (a) that he wants to clear it. But he
is not recommending it. -
John Dean: Uh, huh.
Pres. Nixon: He said - "Stand fast (unintelligible) However, public
prosecution would not be harmful to an individual, you know, if
we had the resignation in hand so we could act on it.
(inaudible) other than let me say - let me see what you had in
mind.
John Dean: I have a letter -
Pres. Nixon: I don't care about the letter but I thought it was fair - fair
to everybody. (Inaudible)
John Dean: I wrote: "Dear Mr. President: Inasmuch as you have informed me
that John Ehrlichman and Bob Haldeman have verbally tendered
their requests for immediate and indefinite leave of absence
from the staff, I declare I wish also to confirm my similar
request as having accepted a leave of absence from the staff."
Well, I think there is a problem -
Pres. Nixon: You don't want to go if they stay -
John Dean: There is a problem for you of the scapegoat theory.
Pres. Nixon: You mean making use of it.
John Dean: That's right.
Pres. Nixon: Like Magruder being the scapegoat for Mitchell?
John Dean: That's right. You know, everybody is appearing before the Grand
Jury. This does not impute guilt on anybody.
Pres. Nixon: Let me put it this way I think rather (unintelligible) I could
say that you, as Counsel - that you have been responsible for
the investigation. We already have said that about this case
haven't we?
John Dean: That's right. The only man you are dealing with and the only role
1 have is to help fill in any information I can to deal with
the Public Relations of the problem. You know -
Pres. Nixon: You can say it that way John. You can say the President sought
your advice until it is cleared up.
John Dean: That's right.
Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) I don't know that the letter (inaudible) and
that goes out ahead, frankly, of the Magruder-Mitchell hitch
doesn't it?
John Dean: That's right. I wasn't counting on that -
Pres. Nixon: We haven't made a deal with Magruder's lawyers yet. Magruder is
turning from the Ervin Committee on Judge Sirica -
John Dean: (Unintelligible)
Pres. Nixon: I don't want you to talk to anybody else, understand? Except
for (unintelligible)
John Dean: I am not doing any investigative work or -
Pres. Nixon: Well, that's right. (unintelligible)
John Dean: Well, I turned that off three weeks ago.
Pres. Nixon: Good. You haven't done any since three weeks ago?
John Dean: That's right.
Pres. Nixon: You haven't done any since March 21st?
John Dean: Let me check back and see.
John Dean: Necessity of the overall problems of the White House. Looks like
we both talked to them about that.
Pres. Nixon: Yes - yes it does. Tell me what you last talked with Haldeman
about.
John Dean: That Bob would like Dean to be the fiat to testify. It is very
painful for me. (Inaudible)
Pres. Nixon: (Inaudible) One thing you should all (inaudible) - Did Dean
know? Did Haldeman know? Did Ehrlichman know? You may know.
He said "Dean came over to Haldeman after that and told him
about the plans for GEMSTONE."
Pres. Nixon: (Unintelligible) says you're right . . . His point being that
actually Haldeman then did know.
John Dean: No sir, I disagree with that interpretation -
Pres. Nixon: I didn't know, but if that was the case you see John then - I
would have to - Dean would have told me something.
John Dean: No, because I have always put it to you exactly that, way because
Bob has told me he didn't know. Now I know I didn't know but I
feel -
Pres. Nixon: What about this conversation? (inaudible) If this had happened,
wasn't Bob responsible for telling me?
John Dean: I think what happened is probably this - everyone assumed that
John Mitchell would never have approved anything like this. I
told him I was not going to have further dealings with Liddy or
anybody over there on this and I didn't. I didn't have the
foggiest notion what they were doing.
Pres. Nixon: That's what you told me, you know. (inaudible)
John Dean: Well, Bob tells me he did not know. Now I know the question is -
the other thing is - I cannot, I couldn't describe twenty
minutes after the meeting what Liddy was presenting was the
most spectacular sales pitch you have ever seen in codes and
charts and (unintelligible) operations.
Pres. Nixon: You mean Gemstone?
John Dean: Well, that is what I am told now later after the fact they called
it. I told Bob, "They are talking about bugging. They are
talking about kidnapping. They are talking about mugging
squads, taking people south of the border in San Diego, etc."
Pres. Nixon: What did Bob say?
John Dean: He said, "Absolutely NO."
Pres. Nixon: You will so testify?
John Dean: That is right - absolutely. I don't know - I assumed - Bob has
never told me anything to the contrary so I thought that
nothing happened from the time of that meeting where he told
me, "Don't do anything about it. You are to stay away from it.
Don't talk to Hunt and Liddy." I said to Liddy, "I am never
going to talk to you about this again, Gordo." So what I
thought was that inaction was the result - of their not having
b produced something reasonable. Second, I don't know -
Pres. Nixon: You didn't get hold of Mitchell on it did you?
John Dean: I don't have the record on that -
Pres. Nixon: Magruder says that - but - (inaudible) Then I see. Your
statement is consistent with what you told me before. I wish
you would tell (unintelligible) that Haldeman said, "Absolutely
not."
John Dean: That's right. Bob and I have gone over that after the fact and he
recalls my coming to the office and telling him about this
crazy scheme that was being cooked up.
Pres. Nixon: Do you want to go and get together -
John Dean: I will work on this statement - they want to have something to
(unintelligible) that they are going to go before the Grand
Jury.
Pres. Nixon: Bill Rogers. We are going to have him available. Everyone
needs help. None of us can really help another I really
believe.
John Dean: That's right. All I am trying to think is how we can get you out
from under.
Pres. Nixon: That's right. I tried to talk today about social issues,
etcetera, and everyone is just interested in the Watergate
Issue. My days are too short -
John Dean: Something about Magruder - they are going to take him to the
courts.
Pres. Nixon: I know - he has agreed to (inaudible)
John Dean: I can't forsee what we would want to say about any investigation -
Pres. Nixon: "You see I make my own" How about trying that? "Let the White
House Staff (inaudible)"
John Dean: Unfortunately it doesn't solve; your problem. Mine bother me but
(unintelligible) Mitchell was making heavy comments that Liddy
and Hunt will make heavier problems for the White House that,
he will. (unintelligible)
John Dean: Poor Bud Krogh is so miserable. Knowing what he knows -
Pres. Nixon: Need any help with him?
John Dean: There is no reason that he should be. The only evidence that they
have (inaudible)
John Dean: It just got forced on him. When I was first talking to him - "Run
these guys through the Grand Jury -" To be very honest with
you, I have talked about it around here before I got in to see
for many, many months. Then I thought I could not let it
interfere with my work anymore so I thought I might as well
forget It.
Pres. Nixon: That's right. That's when you came in to see me. Finally, that
is when I came in to see you and got some answers.
John Dean: Now, they have their full investigation going - with subpoena
power, investigative power, etcetera. It is all like a set of
dominoes if one goes they will all go.
Pres. Nixon: Secretaries, etcetera
John Dean: I don't know (unintelligible) They are going to handle Ehrlichman
and Haldeman. There is a potential prima facie situation right
now (inaudible) which thereby makes it necessary for you to
make a judgment that those people should leave the staff.
Pres. Nixon: Make it necessary for me to relieve them from any duties at this
state.
John Dean: That's right.
Pres. Nixon: I don't have to discuss it with him - but just say, "You are all
out"
John Dean: That is a tougher question because one that is putting you in the
position of being the judge of the entire facts before all the
facts are in necessarily.
Pres. Nixon: That is really my problem in a nutshell. So those fellows say
that - this fellow says that -
John Dean: Maybe that is the way this ought to be handled. You say, I have
heard information about allegations about (inaudible) some
publicly and some have not become public yet. I am not in a
position to judge because all the facts are not in yet
(inaudible)?
Pres. Nixon: (Inaudible) But you agree, John, don't you that the statement is
fair to everybody? And frankly - (Balance inaudible - door
closes.)