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Info-Atari16 Digest         Tue,  2 Jul 91       Volume 91 : Issue 370

Today's Topics:
                          Amiga - Atari War
                  Amiga is better then [sic] what???
                           Atari-Amiga wars
                       Atari vs Amiga (2 msgs)
                              atari woes
                      Cold Hard Cache -- help..
                         GCC 1.39 -g Problems
                        Help with altboot4.0e
           Maccel 2/3 (Or whatever the current version is)
                         STalker/STeno v3.0?
                     This week's program (2 msgs)
                         Unix Windows, Where?
                           Unix Windows....
                         Unwanted Amiga Input
                             UW (2 msgs)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 91 20:23:08 GMT
From:
 noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!oakhill!digital!digital.sps.
 mot.com![e-mail] (Jinfu Chen)
Subject: Amiga - Atari War
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
 (Keith J. Mullins) writes:
>
>       Here is a bright idea.  Why don't you create a new news group
>especially for the Great Amiga and Atari War.  It is getting very
>frustrating reading this newsgroup when 75% is just fighting back
>and forth between the two computers.  Put it somewhere else
>where who ever reads it wants to read it.

There IS such a group for this purpose: comp.sys.amiga.advacoy.
Unfortunately, no matter what we have tried to do (having a dedicate group,
posting monthly reminder), there're always some fanatics jumping around
trying to convert the rest of world. My advice, just ignore these people and
the topic (I'm not even following my own advice :-)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 91 20:49:32 GMT
From:
 noao!ncar!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!apple!voder!nsc!amdahl!JUTS!duts!kls30
 @arizona.edu (Kent L Shephard)
Subject: Amiga is better then [sic] what???
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Daniel Tracy) writes:
>Responding to the following:
>
>> As to sound? Well The ST is the only one so far that has the capability of 3d
>> sound. The STe series computers have the capability of using 3 seperate
>> speakers with different sounds out of each.... 2 of those full 8 bit
 digital..
>The Macintosh will do 4. Each of those 8-bit, 44KHz sampled.

Since when.  This implies that a Mac is capable of CD quality sound if you
use two eight bit ports as one output.  NOT a chance in hell.  The Mac
in its standard configuration is limited to 8 bit sound with a max
sampling rate of 22Khz.

BTW - My NeXT can handle 4 channels of CD quaility sound, that is 4
channels at 44.1k and 16bits directly from the harddisk.  Two channels
will be multiplexed on one speaker.
Anyway, the only thing inferior to a Mac in the standard sound catagory is
an IBM PC.
--
/*  -The opinions expressed are my own, not my employers.    */
/*      For I can only express my own opinions.              */
/*                                                           */
/*   Kent L. Shephard  : email - [e-mail]   */

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jul 91 18:31:03 GMT
From:
 noao!ncar!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!ftpbox!mothost!motcid!d
 [e-mail] (James P. Dusek)
Subject: Atari-Amiga wars
To: [e-mail]

[e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) writes:

>        So, here's a proposed remedy; if anyone wants to, they should take
>the my-Amiga-kicks-ass posts, and re-post them on the Amiga newsgroups with
>the following note attached:

        WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you fell you must do something E-MAIL the posts back to the people who
wrote them. DO NOT repost them into amiga groups, all your gonna do is
expand the war as Amiga users will come back and reply in comp.sys.atari.st.
B.T.W. If you want to read some computer wars tune into comp.sys.amiga.
advocay. Mac,IBM and Next users frequently base the amiga here. Until
recently no Atari users ventured into this newsgroup, hats off to Atari
users. (Some Atari user has already poster something to MOST Amiga
newsgroups, I hope this does not expand the war :(

                                                J.Dusek

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 91 17:17:14 GMT
From: cbmvax![e-mail] (Dave Haynie)
Subject: Atari vs Amiga
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert
 Barton) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (azog-thoth)
 writes:

>>Well... This may be considered not in good taste, but what the hell...

>>Amiga has multitasking, and Ill [sic] tell you right now: I _dont_ need it.
>>How can I be so sure? Well, put it this way. I work on a VAX 6220,
>>with 128mb of RAM and over 3gb of disk space. It has duel [sic] processors,
>>and can support over 200 processes. We dont have over 200 users, so
>>I cant say how good itll [sic] do over 200, but I suspect our VMS license
>>is only 256, so the point is moot.

Well, come on, who cares about the number of users.  You must certainly be
using 5 or more processes yourself if you're really taking advantage of a
[yech!] VMS system.  Before I came to C=, I programmed on one of these babies
for four months at GE (my shortest job ever, 'cept for summer jobs).  You
obviously SPAWN off anything that takes more than 10 minutes to compile.  You
run Emacs as a separate process, etc.  The VMS license, if anything like a
typical UNIX license, only limits logins, not processes.  So if you really
think you don't need multitasking, you're either doing something really strange
on that system, or you don't know how to use it effectively.  It's certainly
much harder on a VAX or anything else without a GUI.  That doesn't make me
wonder about multitasking systems without GUIs, but it sure made me wonder
about GUIs without multitasking, ever since I first saw a Mac...

>Anyways, compared to this, the Atari _and_ the Amiga is a toy, OK? VMS is a
>real multitasking system, fact.

So is AmigaOS.  VAXen, like it or not, are getting mighty slow and mighty
expensive by modern standards.  That's why "cbmvax" here is a DECstation 5000,
based on the MIPS R3000, not a VAX anymore.  VMS, like UNIX, is a real
multiUSER OS, while AmigaOS isn't.  And it does have some elegance here and
there, but for the most part it's butt ugly, IMHO.  Referring to "Rico's Molly
Benchmark Chart" here, I find the VAX 6320 under VMS doing 4.5 mollies, with
the A3000 doing 7.3 under UNIX.  Now who's the "toy"? (Answer: the MicroVAX,
which does 1 molly, compared to the PC-AT at 1.1).
--
Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests"
   {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh      PLINK: hazy     BIX: hazy
                "I looked for it and I found it" -R.E.M.

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 91 00:18:38 GMT
From: noao!ncar!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!menudo.uh.edu![e-mail] (Paul
 Stephen Sears)
Subject: Atari vs Amiga
To: [e-mail]

[e-mail] (Dave Haynie) presents in article
 <[e-mail]>
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert
 Barton) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
 (azog-thoth) writes:
>
[Stuff about using a VAX at work....]
>
[stuff about multitasking on VMS...]
>
>>Anyways, compared to this, the Atari _and_ the Amiga is a toy, OK? VMS is a
>>real multitasking system, fact.
>
>So is AmigaOS.  VAXen, like it or not, are getting mighty slow and mighty
>expensive by modern standards.  That's why "cbmvax" here is a DECstation 5000,
>based on the MIPS R3000, not a VAX anymore.  VMS, like UNIX, is a real
>multiUSER OS, while AmigaOS isn't.  And it does have some elegance here and
>there, but for the most part it's butt ugly, IMHO.  Referring to "Rico's Molly
>Benchmark Chart" here, I find the VAX 6320 under VMS doing 4.5 mollies, with
                                   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>the A3000 doing 7.3 under UNIX.  Now who's the "toy"? (Answer: the MicroVAX,
     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>which does 1 molly, compared to the PC-AT at 1.1).

I thought we were talking about VMS.... Now, if you put UNIX on that VAX
6320, then it would run circles around that A3000 running its flavor of
*nix.  Hardware-wise, the A3000 could hardly run VMS.  Just because VMS
is a "dog", one does not need to condem the hardware.  VMS is slow.
UNIX is fast.  They originated and were designed around different OS
concepts.  They can't be compared.  But, you seem to fall into the
falicy of Multitasking... Yes, actually, VMS does multitask, just in a
different way than most other OS's... All multitasking on the above
mentioned machines is more like "time-sharing". It is not until you have
MULTIPLE processors, running concurrently that you would get true
multitasking...
>--
>Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests"
>   {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh      PLINK: hazy     BIX: hazy
>               "I looked for it and I found it" -R.E.M.


--
* Paul Sears * Technology    ***    |"The greater an individual's power
* The University of Houston  ***    | over others, the greater the evil that
* [e-mail]      * * *   | might possibly originate with him."
* [e-mail]     *  *  *  | - PROPAGANDA, from A Secret Wish (CD)

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 91 01:53:41 GMT
From:
 noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!mips!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!goanna!min
 yos.xx.rmit.oz.au![e-mail] (Tehn Chin)
Subject: atari woes
To: [e-mail]

[e-mail] (Chuck Schul) writes:

>atari computers are great for the buck.most people in the usa do not know
>this.maybe user like us should set up displays on weeksends on or at
>libaray's that allow us.to show what an atari can do!i love atari's but
>lack of support is catching up to ea leaving it and software companies
>making ibm,mac,amiga stuff to augment st lines sacres me.what do you all
>think.this a is a place to start a great thing accross the usa.!!!!!
>----
>ProLine:  chuckie@pro-odyssey
>Internet: [e-mail]
>UUCP:     crash!pro-odyssey!chuckie
>ARPA:     crash!pro-odyssey![e-mail]

Sounds like Atari in the USA is in about the same state as it is in Australia.
The thing is that Atari is not making the public aware the type of machine
the Atari is or what type of work it can do. A recent advertisement in
Australia shows a teenager in his room playing Captain Blood on the Atari ST.
I wonder why the Atari is still tought as a games machine here.
What did Atari in Germany do to get such a good reputation there?

Tehn Yit Chin
[e-mail]
Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 91 02:05:04 GMT
From: netcomsv![e-mail] (Roy Bixler)
Subject: Cold Hard Cache -- help..
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Christopher
 Russell) writes:
>
>I have heard that Cold Hard Cache is supposed to be one of the better
> ... (stuff deleted)
>Is anybody using CHC on >16M partitions.  Can somebody suggest another
>cache program?

Yes, I can suggest Atari's CACHEnnn program.  It works with AHDI
3.01 and large partitions.  I don't know how it compares with other
programs, but it certainly does the job of speeding your disk reads.
You can get this as 'utilities/rainbow.arc' from atari.archive.

>
>          .........thanks.........
>
>
>--
>Christopher L. Russell (yonderboy)  Phone: [phone] Campbell,CA
>[e-mail] or [e-mail] or [e-mail]
>


--
Roy Bixler
[e-mail] -or- (UUCP) uunet!apple!netcom!rcb
"Just when you think you know it all, it changes!"

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 91 18:49:00 GMT
From:
 noao!ncar!asuvax!cs.utexas.edu!samsung!think.com!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!ira.uka.
 de!smurf.sub.org!artcom0!hb.maus.de!k2.maus.de![e-mail] (Frank
 Celler)
Subject: GCC 1.39 -g Problems
To: [e-mail]

I have got "gcc139b.lzh" containing the GNU assembler for ATARI-ST
version 1.38 from Uni Koeln and the GNU debugger "gdb" from A.A.
When trying to compile a file with the "-gg" option,  the assembler
reports an unkown option "G" and starts reading the (compiler) symbolfile
as input file.  When trying to compile with "-g",  I get a bogon-alert
from the linker.  Does anyone know what's going wrong?  How can I use
the debugger?  Unfortunately I only have docs for GCC 1.37.

Thanx in advance
   Frank Celler

email: frank_celler @ k2.maus.de

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 91 20:15:18 GMT
From: fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com![e-mail]
Subject: Help with altboot4.0e
To: [e-mail]

I need HELP with Altboot 4.0e.

If you know what this program is (it lets you boot alternate configurations
when you hold down ALTERNATE) then please attempt to assist me.

When executing my configuration files, all works well until I try to add
a modifier for another type of file.  Ex:  To load a different desktop.inf,
you enter a single-digit, such as "0" or "1" followed by return.  ALTBT will
then rename DESKTOP.IN0 to DESKTOP.INF and the previous DESKTOP.INF will
have been renamed to what it was previously (DESKTOP.IN1 or some other).

I cannot get it to do this with a list of data (FILE.LST).  This data file
tells my Ramdisk copier what files to copy to Ramdisk upon bootup.  I
maintain many lists of FILE.LST (so they will give me flexibility with this
programme).  One will go with a 52K configured RAMdisk and copy UUD/UUE to
RAM.  another FILE.LST copies GIF viewers to RAM.

Here is an example of a configuration file which works.

hd_reset.prg    enable hdreset
hdstrt10.prg     Pick progs from a menu
codekeys.prg     Install codekeys
lgselect.prx     Don't want a file selector now
1               desktop.in1 = current desktop.inf
codekeys.acc    Make codekeys work too

Now, according to the documentation, I should enter a "#" on an empty line;
then the files with their path in order to rename 'em.  So, I add:



#
a \ file.lst 1   file.ls1 will be current file.lst


However --  With these two additional lines, Alt-Boot ignores my configuration
file completely.  EXCEPT for the fact that it *does* say, "FILE.LS1 current
FILE.LST"  That is, it does *not* modify my programs/accs as specified in
the beginning of the configuration file.

HELP!!!!

Any comments?
(I tried sending mail to author via Internet but frigger mail bounced)
Mail me at:   [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 91 00:51:53 GMT
From: mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!isis.cs.du.edu![e-mail] (John Bunch)
Subject: Maccel 2/3 (Or whatever the current version is)
To: [e-mail]

Howdy all...

I recently had a problem and accidently reformatted a disk of mine
that had my only copy of maccel.  I would like to know where I would
be able to get another copy of it...  Any help would be appreciated..
Thanx...

John Bunch

[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 91 20:25:01 GMT
From: fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com![e-mail]
Subject: STalker/STeno v3.0?
To: [e-mail]

YEAH where is this new version of STalker?  WAS it ever released???????


And what about a new version of FLASH?


dont ignoreuswe'llnevergoawayuntilwegetouranswersthenwemaythinkupsomething:)

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 91 22:54:14 GMT
From:
 noao!asuvax!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!menudo.uh.edu!uace0
 @arizona.edu (ATARI Computer Enthusiasts)
Subject: This week's program
To: [e-mail]

Just thought I'd let everyone know that I will be on vacation for the rest of
the week, so I've posted this week's program to atari.archive.umich.edu.

DC Homey will home the mouse cursor to the center of the screen.  Just press
<ALTERNATE>+<CONTROL>+<LEFT SHIFT>+<H> at any time.

- mike vederman / Double Click Software

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Double Click Me | Double Click Software | P.O. Box 741206 | Houston, Tx, 77274
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Voice: [phone] | DC DESKTOP | DC FORMATTER | DC UTILITIES | and others

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 91 05:15:18 GMT
From: munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!uqcspe!cs.uq.oz.au![e-mail]
 (Warwick Allison)
Subject: This week's program
To: [e-mail]

[e-mail] (ATARI Computer Enthusiasts) writes:

>Just thought I'd let everyone know that I will be on vacation for the rest of
>the week, so I've posted this week's program to atari.archive.umich.edu.

>DC Homey will home the mouse cursor to the center of the screen.  Just press
><ALTERNATE>+<CONTROL>+<LEFT SHIFT>+<H> at any time.

Isn't this getting just a little bit silly?  I think the `one program per
week' thing is a bit out-of-hand.

        1. AltCntlShiftH is more complicated than moving the mouse.
        2. Why would you WANT to do it anyway?
        3. IF Homey intercepts traps (it probably doesn't though), then
                it is another slow-down.

Please, I AM NOT MEANING TO DISCOURAGE, I just wanted to give my opinion.

Small, useful programs are excellent.  But really, they HAVE to be useful.


Warwick.
--
  _-_|\       [e-mail]
 /     *  <-- Computer Science Department,
 \_.-._/      University of Queensland,
      v       Brisbane, AUSTRALIA.

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 91 22:16:59 GMT
From: unhd.unh.edu!oz![e-mail] (Technoid)
Subject: Unix Windows, Where?
To: [e-mail]

I'm very, very interested in using ( or at least trying ) UNIX windows
that everyone is talking about. But I've searched Atari.Archive for UW and
can't find it anywhere. Can someone give me the exact location?

thanks

        Stephan

--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
  [e-mail]      Stephan R. Cleaves      Salamanders Are Cool...
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 91 20:20:07 GMT
From: uupsi!mpoint![e-mail] (Chris Mauritz)
Subject: Unix Windows....
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Christopher
 Russell) writes:
>I read a message not too long ago that meantioned a UNIX windowing
>interface called Unix Windows that would run on the ST.  I was
>very interested so I ftp'd it over from atari.archive.
>
>My problem:  it don't work   :-)
>
>First I ran win.prg on the ST.  Boy, looks nice.  I kinda had the idea
>I would be able to use it to make the connection to the remote system
>but all I get is a blank window (the pull downs and everthing works).
>
>My next step was to compile the server program (uw) on the SUN system
>that I use.  Then I ran the uw program..  whew, no core dump.
>
>Crossing my fingers, I exit my term program (uniterm) and run win.prg.
>Still, I get nothing.  The RS232 setup is correct.  It tells me the
>UW is not running whenever I try to open a window.
>
>I cannot type in any of the windows on the screen.  I fear that the problem
>might be that I am trying to run the program on a color system.  One of the
>readme's said it would only run on mono systems.  Is this a case? Is there
>a fix?  Am I doing something totally wrong (likely).
>
>Please help... thanks....

I'll try. :-)  I tried this program many moons ago also.  It does NOT
work on a color system.  I didn't try using it with any of the mono
emulators so perhaps that would be your first move.  If you have Mac
emulation, you can try running Maclayers under the Mac OS.  It works
better than uw anyway.  You can get it through anonymous FTP from
Rascal.utexas.edu.

Good luck.

Chris
--
------------------------------------+---------------------------------------
Chris Mauritz                       |People are strange
[e-mail]                        |when you're a stranger.
Copyright (C) 1991                  |The Doors-

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 91 19:15:05 GMT
From: noao!ncar!csn!convex!egsner!pfloyd![e-mail] (Greg Harp)
Subject: Unwanted Amiga Input
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Darling) writes:
>To all who missed out, this started when a snivelling little shithead
>fuck named Thomas Hill posted a rambling Amiga boast with the intent
>of starting a flame war.  The fact that he posted a message about it
>on an Amiga newsgroup shortly thereafter inviting people to "join in
>the fun" proves this.
>
>This Erik person apparently decided to "join in".  There are others.

[Erik's message was removed for space...]

>Attempts to justify the original post are laughable.  Hill claimed
>first that 10 people (and one day later, interestingly enough, 20
>people) responded to his post seeking asylum in Amigaland.  Yes,
>that's right, he claims that there are 20 people who have usenet
>access, and considered buying Amigas, but to whom it never occurred
>to go to one of the dozen Amiga newsgroups and ask questions.
>
>Frankly, it was fun flaming you weenies for a while.  But now you've
>become rather tiresome.  From now on this discussion will take place
>in YOUR newsgroup, not ours.
>
>Which is too bad, because most Amiga users I've met have been good
>folks.  Well, you started it.  You can have it back.

We don't want it.  WE didn't start it.  Some person who _happens_ to own
an Amiga started it.  It is of no concern to most (if not all) of us, and
we'd rather you deal with your newsgroup problems in your own newsgroup.

Obviously nothing good can come out of this flame war, and it would just
be an annoyance to us.  Since we were uninvolved at the start, I don't
see why you should involve us now.  Please learn to ignore people who
flame just for the sake of flaming.

Perhaps you should create a comp.sys.atari.st.advocacy.  Our .advocacy
group has become quite a place for debate, and flame wars are not so
frequent anymore.  In fact, there is sort of a side-discussion about
how advanced the DOS routines in TOS are compared to AmigaDOS'
dos.library.  You are welcome to come over join in.  Please don't
bother flaming, though.  We're looking for real discussion, not trash.

Just trying to keep the peace in c.s.amiga.*,
  Greg
--
[e-mail]-----------convex!egsner!pfloyd!greg---------
"How I wish.  How I wish you were here.  We're just two lost souls swimming in
 a fishbowl year after year.  Running over the same old ground.  What have we
 found?  The same old fears.  Wish you were here."  --  Pink Floyd

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 91 00:18:11 GMT
From: unhd.unh.edu!oz![e-mail] (Technoid)
Subject: UW
To: [e-mail]

Help,

        Maybe I have this whole thing wrong. UW sounds great, but I thought it
was for the ST. Does is require GCR to emulate a MAC to use this program?
I finally know where it is, but I guess I can't use it.


Stephan

--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
  [e-mail]      Stephan R. Cleaves      Salamanders Are Cool...
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

------------------------------

Date: 3 Jul 91 01:45:02 GMT
From: mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!isis.cs.du.edu![e-mail] (John Bunch)
Subject: UW
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
 (Technoid) writes:
>Help,
>
>       Maybe I have this whole thing wrong. UW sounds great, but I thought it
>was for the ST. Does is require GCR to emulate a MAC to use this program?
>I finally know where it is, but I guess I can't use it.
>
>
>Stephan
>
>--
>\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
>  [e-mail]      Stephan R. Cleaves      Salamanders Are Cool...
>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

Steven,

Also in the telecomm directory are file to use uw with the atari.  I
am currently using it right now..  I will post a message in a couple
days to tell you exactly what files are needed.  I set it up 2-3
months ago..  Although I hate using it, cause I only have a color
monitor and it requires mono monitor only..   Anybody out there
thinking of porting it to color?  Would be appreciated by a few people
I am sure....

John Bunch

[e-mail]

------------------------------

End of Info-Atari16 Digest
******************************