MR. LIGHTOLLER: In the case of the last boat I got out, I had the utmost difficulty in finding women. It was the very last boat of all, after all the other boats were put out and we came forward to put out the collapsible boats. In the meantime the forward emergency boat had been put out by one of the other officers. So we rounded up the tackles and got the collapsible boat to put that over. Then I called for women and could not get hold of any. Somebody said, "There are no women." With this, several men­­
SENATOR SMITH: Who said that?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I do not know, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: On what deck was that?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: On the boat deck.
SENATOR SMITH: Were all the women supposed to be on the boat deck?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir; they were supposed to be.
SENATOR SMITH: Why?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Because the boats were there. I might say that previous to putting this Berthon boat out we had lowered a boat from A deck one deck down below. That was through my fault. It was the first boat I had lowered. I was intending to put the passengers in from A deck. On lowering it down I found the windows were closed. So I sent someone down to open the windows and carried on with the other boats, but decided it was not worth while lowering them down, that I could manage just as well from the boat deck. When I came forward from the other boats, I loaded that boat from A deck by getting the women out through the windows. My idea in filling the boats there was because there was a wire hawser running along the side of the ship for coaling purposes, and it was handy to tie the boat in to, to hold it so that nobody could drop between the side of the boat and the ship.
SENATOR SMITH: Which one was that?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: That is No. 4; No. 4 boat.
SENATOR SMITH: That was filled from there?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: That was filled from there, loaded and sent away. Then we went to the Berthon boat.
SENATOR SMITH: In the fifth boat; how many seamen were there?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: As far as I remember, two seamen.
SENATOR SMITH: Two?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: How many people did you put into it?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I might have put a good deal more; I filled her up as much as I could. When I got down to the fifth boat, that was aft.
SENATOR SMITH: You were still using your best judgment?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I was not using very much judgment then; I was filling them up.
SENATOR SMITH: At that time you felt­­
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I knew it was a question of the utmost speed, to get the boats away.
SENATOR SMITH: To get them away?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: In that situation you were quite sure that they were filled to their capacity?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir. I don't say to their floating capacity, I don't say 65.
SENATOR SMITH: But about the same number of persons were in each boat?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I should say 35 or 40.
SENATOR SMITH: Was the sixth one loaded in the same manner?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I think the sixth one put down was this one from A deck that I spoke of ­ no, the fifth one would be from A deck. I think the chief officer, under his direct supervision, lowered a boat from the after end. Of course, I can not be absolutely certain. But when I came forward, as I say, I put the one down from A deck which I told you about. Then we went to the Berthon boat, which is the last boat on the port side, the collapsible boat.
SENATOR SMITH: The fifth boat was lowered in the same manner?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir. I think it was the fifth from the A deck.
SENATOR SMITH: With two seamen?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes.
SENATOR SMITH: And the balance women?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Women and children.
SENATOR SMITH: Women and children? Up to this time, so far as you recollect, no men had been permitted to get into these boats?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: None had attempted to do so; no, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: How about the sixth boat?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: That is the collapsible, the surfboat?
SENATOR SMITH: That is the collapsible. Did you take the same course with that?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: That is a much smaller boat.
SENATOR SMITH: How many seamen did you put in that?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I think there was one seaman and one steward. I could not say.
SENATOR SMITH: Do you recollect whether there was a light on that boat?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir; I was not looking for lights.
SENATOR SMITH: Do you recollect whether Mrs. Douglass, of Minneapolis, was in that boat?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I don't know her at all, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Have you had any talk with her about it?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Never have spoken to her or seen her, to my knowledge.
SENATOR SMITH: How many people were put into this sixth boat?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Fifteen or perhaps 20. Between 15 and 20.
SENATOR SMITH: And two seamen?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I do not know what seamen­­
SENATOR SMITH: Or one?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I think one seaman probably, if I had one seaman there. Perhaps it was two stewards. I do not know, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Would the two stewards answer the same purpose?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: They would have to.
SENATOR SMITH: Did you select the men to take that boat the same as you had before?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: You mean whether I ordered them in?
SENATOR SMITH: Yes.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I ordered them in.
SENATOR SMITH: But you can not recall who they were?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I was just thinking. No, not with any degree of certainty?
SENATOR SMITH: Were any of them officers?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Did you have any difficulty in filling it?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: With women; yes, sir; great difficulty.
SENATOR SMITH: But you filled it to its capacity?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I filled it with about 15 or 20 eventually mustered up. It took longer to fill that boat than it did any other boat, notwithstanding that the others had more in them. On two occasions the men thought there were no more women and commenced to get in and then found one or two more and then got out again.
SENATOR SMITH: How long a time do you think you had been in loading these six boats?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I don't know, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: If it took 15 to 20 minutes to a boat?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: About an hour and a half.
SENATOR SMITH: About an hour and a half?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: That is about right.
SENATOR SMITH: The vessel must have been going down?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I lowered the last boat 10 feet and it was in the water.
SENATOR SMITH: You lowered it 10 feet and it was in the water?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: When you began lowering, the boat was about 60 feet up from the water?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Seventy feet.
SENATOR SMITH: From the water?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: I mean the deck.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: From the deck; exactly, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: What did you do with the seventh boat?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: That was the finish.
SENATOR SMITH: What was that?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: The seventh boat was the one on top of the quarters.
SENATOR SMITH: That was the last boat that was lowered by your orders?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: It was the last. It was not lowered.
SENATOR SMITH: Did you see Mr. Ismay at that time?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Mr. Ismay as far as I know, from what I have gathered afterwards, was on the starboard side of the deck wholly, helping out there.
SENATOR SMITH: He did not enter the boat from the port side?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: How many people do you think were in the seventh boat?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: There were not any in it.
SENATOR SMITH: I mean the sixth boat?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: The last collapsible boat?
SENATOR SMITH: Yes.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I say about 15.
SENATOR SMITH: Wouldn't it hold any more than that?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Perhaps 20. They won't hold many. They are canvas. They will not stand many.
SENATOR SMITH: They won't stand very much?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Oh, no, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: So that they really do not answer the purpose of a lifeboat?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: They are not as good as a lifeboat; no sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Have neither the capacity nor the resistance?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir. They are merely stowed in a smaller place. Perhaps you can stow at least three of those where you can stow one lifeboat. You can stow them one on top of the other.
SENATOR SMITH: So far as your knowledge goes, the lifeboats on the port side consisted of how many lifeboats and how many of those canvas boats?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Seven lifeboats, one emergency boat, which is on the same principle as the lifeboat, practically, only it is a smaller and handier boat, and two collapsible boats.
SENATOR SMITH: The one that was in the tackle was the last boat that was attempted to be lowered on the port side?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: The collapsible boat?
SENATOR SMITH: Yes.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: How many of the collapsible boats were there altogether on the ship?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Four.
SENATOR SMITH: And 16 of another type?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: You must have been painfully aware of the fact that there were not enough boats there to care for that large passenger list, were you not?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Do you know who had charge on the starboard side of the lowering and filling of the boats?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir. Merely what I am told.
SENATOR SMITH: What have you been told about it? Maybe we can get something from that.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: As far as I know, and I think it is correct, Mr. Murdock. Mr. Murdock was on the starboard side. I was on the port side, and Mr. Murdock was on the starboard side, and the chief officer was superintending generally, and lowered one or two boats himself.
SENATOR SMITH: From whom did you get that information?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Of course, I saw Mr. Murdock there when finally I had finished the port side.
SENATOR SMITH: You went to the starboard side?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: On top; yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: For the purpose of lowering this­­­
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I went over to see if I could assist.
SENATOR SMITH: And you saw him there?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I saw him there
SENATOR SMITH: From anything you have been told, did he pursue the same course on the starboard side in reference to the filling of the lifeboats, and the complement of seamen as you did?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: That I could not say.
SENATOR SMITH: Was there any rule as to that?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: As to the number of seamen?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir; except for boat drill. Of course, that was not boat drill.
SENATOR SMITH: What was the number of the ship's crew?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Of seamen?
SENATOR SMITH: Yes.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: About 71 seamen.
SENATOR SMITH: What constituted the crew besides seamen?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Firemen and stewards.
SENATOR SMITH: And their force?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Oh, yes. They mustered up something like 800, perhaps a little under, perhaps a little over. Somewhere around 800. About 800, roughly speaking, firemen and stewards. A little less than 800. The crew altogether is about 850 or 860; that is, including seamen, firemen and stewards.
SENATOR SMITH: And you had your full complement on this voyage?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: As far as I know.
SENATOR SMITH: How do you account for your inability to get hold of more than nine seamen to man those lifeboats on the port side?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Earlier, and before I realized that there was any danger, I told off the boatswain to take some men ­ I didn't say how many, leaving the man to use his own judgment, to go down below and open the gangway doors in order that the boats could come alongside and be filled to their utmost capacity. He complied with that order, and, so far, as I know, went down below, and I did not see him afterwards. That took away a number of men, and we detailed two men for each boat and two men for lowering down.
SENATOR SMITH: But you did not have two men for each boat, officer. You only had­­
MR. LIGHTOLLER: So far as they will go.
SENATOR SMITH: You only had nine seamen to seven boats?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Well, I have only been telling you approximately. As far as ever I could, I put two seamen in a boat. If I didn't have a seaman there, I had to put a steward there.
SENATOR SMITH: I understand that.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Sometimes there would be three seamen in a boat. As soon as the boats were lowered to the level of the rail, I would detail one man to jump in and ship the rudder, one man to cast adrift the oars, and one man would see that the plugs were in, and it would take three men.
SENATOR SMITH: You said you chose these men and when the lifeboat is swung out from the ship and lowered it is supposed that she has her full complement of officers and seamen, is it not?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: She is swung out and lowered to the level of the rail, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Level with the rail but not against the rail?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No.
SENATOR SMITH: When you are lowering the lifeboat you are supposed to have filled it to its safe capacity?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Lowering it afterwards from the rail down. You see we have to swing it out first of all and lower it until it is level with the rail, so that the people can have one foot on deck and the other foot to step into the boat. They must be level.
SENATOR SMITH: When you called Maj. Pusey you had no seamen?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Not that I could see, and I couldn't waste time looking for them.
SENATOR SMITH: When you put the two officers, if I understand you correctly­­
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No officers.
SENATOR SMITH: Stewards?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Stewards.
SENATOR SMITH: When you put the two stewards into the lifeboat, you had no seamen?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: If I put two stewards in. As I say, I might have put two stewards in if there were no seamen.
SENATOR SMITH: How many of the ship's crew survived?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Seamen?
SENATOR SMITH: Seamen and other attaches or employees?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Forty­three seamen, 96 stewards and stewardesses, and 71 firemen.
SENATOR SMITH: Seventy­one firemen?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes.
SENATOR SMITH: And how many seamen?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Forty­three.
SENATOR SMITH: So that you lost 28 seamen.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes.
SENATOR SMITH: And how many of the crew have been saved altogether? How many survived altogether?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Two hundred and ten.
SENATOR SMITH: If the same course was followed on the starboard side with the lifeboats that you took on the port side, how were these men saved?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I don't know, sir. I know that a great number were taken out of the water. I made it my special business to inquire, and as far as I can gather, for every six people picked out of the water, five of them would be firemen or stewards. On our boat, as I have said before, there was Col. Gracie and young Thayer. I think those were the only two passengers.
