MR. LIGHTOLLER: No. I am speaking of the overturned boat.
SENATOR SMITH: I refer to that. There were no women on your boat?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir; these were all taken out of the water and they were firemen and others of the crew.
SENATOR SMITH: How many were there on that boat?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Roughly, about 30. I take that from my own estimate and from the estimate of someone who was looking down from the bridge of the Carpathia?
SENATOR SMITH: Assuming there were 24 of those among the crew?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes.
SENATOR SMITH: That would still leave 190 to get over on these other lifeboats that were filled with women and children?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Some of the boats went back and picked up people out of the wreckage after the ship had gone down, mostly firemen and stewards.
SENATOR SMITH: What boats?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Some of the lifeboats.
SENATOR SMITH: Some of the lifeboats went back?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: That is what I understand; of course, I don't know.
SENATOR SMITH: How far would they have gone?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I don't know, sir. I am only going on hearsay now.
SENATOR SMITH: They could not have gone very far. You will recall that the captain of the Carpathia says that the Carpathia did not linger about the scene of the collision but half an hour?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: They could not have gone very far.
SENATOR SMITH: These boats would not have gone very far in going back to the scene of the wreck? You do not know of your own knowledge that any of these lifeboats were taken back to the scene of the wreck by anybody?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: As a matter of fact, after rowing these boats as far as they were obliged to row them, in some instances several hours, they would have had little strength to have rowed back, would they not, assuming that the men did the work?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I know that they went back, because the men have told me that they were picked up out of the wreckage by the lifeboats that went back.
SENATOR SMITH: Of your own knowledge you don't know anything about these lifeboats returning?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: From what you have said, you discriminated entirely in the interest of the passengers ­ first the women and children ­ in filling these lifeboats?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Why did you do that? Because of the captain's orders or because of the rule of the sea?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: The rule of human nature.
SENATOR SMITH: The rule of human nature? And there was no studied purpose, as far as you know, to save the crew?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Absolutely not.
SENATOR SMITH: The fact that you only put nine seamen into the boats that you lowered, which were half the entire complement­­
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: One­third?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: About a third; perhaps a little more than third; not half.
SENATOR SMITH: A little more than half when you consider that you did not fill the boat that was on the officers' quarters that was thrown without passengers into the sea?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: And one other boat was so entangled in the gearing that it was useless?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: That left 18?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes.
SENATOR SMITH: Did I understand you to say that 1 of the 18 was injured­­­
MR. LIGHTOLLER: (interrupting). Yes, you are right; I beg your pardon.
SENATOR SMITH: So that this really was a little more than half?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I had not thought that I put out half because I am under the impression that the chief officer put out a couple of the after ones on my deck, as well as supervising. He evidently found that he had the time, and put out a couple of these boats, and he also lowered the emergency boat; so I think that is 3 he put out, out of 10 on that side. That left me 7. I think that is about what I put out; 7.
SENATOR SMITH: Did I ask you how many women and children there were aboard ship?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: You did, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Did you reply?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I do not know.
SENATOR SMITH: Is there any record available here of the exact number of passengers ­ men, women, and children? Mr. Franklin, have you that?
MR. FRANKLIN: That will be furnished.
SENATOR SMITH: But you are quite clear that there were no women that you could put into the last boat to fill it?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Not within my sight and hearing.
SENATOR SMITH: You were on the boat deck?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I was standing in the boat. Oh I do know the steward that went in the boat now.
SENATOR SMITH: Tell me who he was.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I do not know that I could give his name. If he is here now, I could recognize him if I saw him.
SENATOR SMITH: That was in the fourth boat?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No; the last boat to be lowered in the tackles; the very last boat to be lowered in the tackles.
SENATOR SMITH: The sixth boat?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir. I could not tell you his name now, but I know there was a steward there.
SENATOR SMITH: Did he survive?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes.
SENATOR SMITH: Did you notice any Americans?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: A plenty.
SENATOR SMITH: Standing near you?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Any amount.
SENATOR SMITH: When you were lowering the women?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Any amount. They gave me every assistance they could, regardless of nationality.
SENATOR SMITH: Did you hear any of their names?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: What do you mean? At that time, sir?
SENATOR SMITH: Yes.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Did any of them attempt to give you their names?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Do you recall, from anything that you heard on shipboard, the names of any that you may have seen?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No; we are not brought in contact with the passengers at all beyond going our rounds.
SENATOR SMITH: Is it the custom, or was it the custom, of your line to print a list of the prominent passengers?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Or the passengers in a little leaflet?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: The first or second day out?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Was this done?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes; it is done as far as possible before we leave home.
SENATOR SMITH: But it is not put out until after the ship has been to sea for a day or two, it is?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I think it is possibly put out the day of sailing, sir; but really, I could not answer that question.
SENATOR SMITH: I wonder if we can obtain it.
MR. FRANKLIN: There is always one out the day of sailing, and there is a corrected one out later. We can give you the one out the day of sailing.
SENATOR SMITH: That is the one I would like.
MR. FRANKLIN: Whether we can get you the corrected one or not is an open problem.
SENATOR SMITH: I will ask you with what type of davit was the Titanic equipped?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: What is known as the Welin patent.
SENATOR SMITH: Where were those passengers or people congregated when you last saw the Titanic? Were they huddled together into any special part of the ship?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: In sinking, did the ship tilt?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: To the fore?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: How much?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Well, roughly, the crow's nest was level with the water when the bridge went under water.
SENATOR SMITH: The crow's nest, at the forepoint?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: That is on the foremast. The lookout cage.
SENATOR SMITH: The crow's nest at the highest point?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Was in the water?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Was just about level with the water.
SENATOR SMITH: When the bridge was submerged?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: And about what was the angle?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I am afraid I could hardly tell you the angle, sir.
MR. KIRLIN: Get the plan and find the height of the crow's nest above the deck and that would give it.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: The plan showing the height of the crow's nest and the bridge would give it to you, roughly.
SENATOR SMITH: I ask you again. There must have been a great number of passengers and crew still on the boat, the part of the boat that was not submerged, probably on the high point, so far as possible. Were they huddled together?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I could not say, sir. They did not seem to be. I could not say, sir; I did not notice; there were a great many of them; there was a great many of them, I know, but as to what condition they were in, huddled or not, I do not know.
SENATOR SMITH: Did they make any demonstration?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: None.
SENATOR SMITH: Was there any lamentation?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir; not a sign of it.
SENATOR SMITH: There must have been about 2,000 people there on that part ­ the unsubmerged part of the boat?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: All the engineers and other men and many of the firemen were down below and never came out on deck at all.
SENATOR SMITH: They never came on deck?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir; they were never seen. That would reduce it by a great number.
SENATOR SMITH: After this impact, did you hear any explosion of any kind?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: None whatever, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: What would be the effect of water at about zero­­­
MR. LIGHTOLLER: [interposing]. At about freezing?
SENATOR SMITH: What would be the effect of water at about freezing on the boilers?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: It is an open question. I have heard it said that they will explode, and others say they will not.
SENATOR SMITH: Have you ever known of a case?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Of a case in point?
SENATOR SMITH: Where they have exploded?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I was sucked down, and I was blown out with something pretty powerful when the ship went down.
SENATOR SMITH: After the ship went down?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes.
SENATOR SMITH: Just describe that a little more fully. You were sucked down?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I was sucked against the blower first of all. As I say, I was on top of the officers' quarters, and there was nothing more to be done. The ship then took a dive, and I turned face forward and also took a dive.
SENATOR SMITH: From which side?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: From on top, practically midships; a little to the starboard side, where I had got to; and I was driven back against a blowerwhich is a large thing that shape [indicating] which faces forward to the wind and which then goes down to the stokehole. But there is a grating there, and it was against this grating that I was sucked by the water and held there.
SENATOR SMITH: Was your head above water?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: You were under water?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir. And then this explosion, or whatever it was, took place. Certainly, I think it was the boilers exploded. There was a terrific blast of air and water, and I was blown out clear.
SENATOR SMITH: Was there any debris that was blown above the surface?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: That I could not say.
SENATOR SMITH: At least you took your head out of the water?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I came up above the water; yes.
SENATOR SMITH: And how far from the sinking ship did it throw you?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Barely threw me away at all; barely threw me away at all, because I went down against these fiddley gratings, immediately abreast of the funnel over the stokehole.
SENATOR SMITH: Was anybody else sucked down at the time?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Col. Gracie, I believe, was sucked down in identically the same manner. He was sucked down on the fiddley gratings.
SENATOR SMITH: There must have been considerable suction?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: That was the water rushing down below as she was going down.
SENATOR SMITH: Going down into the ship?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Exactly.
SENATOR SMITH: How did you get released from that?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Oh, I don't know, sir. I think it was the boilers again, but I do not distinctly remember. I do not know.
SENATOR SMITH: Where did you next find yourself?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Alongside of that raft.
SENATOR SMITH: Where?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Alongside of that upturned boat that had been launched on the other side.
SENATOR SMITH: Where had you gone at that time? Had you gone around the ship?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir; the boat had come around.
SENATOR SMITH: Was there anyone on it?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I don't think so. I think they were around it.
SENATOR SMITH: Your position had not changed, but the boat's position had?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Were there any water­tight compartments in that ship?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: How many?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I could not tell you offhand, sir; 40 or 50.
SENATOR SMITH: Nearly 50?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I say 40 or 50; I can not tell you offhand.
SENATOR SMITH: How were they constructed?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: They were divisional bulkheads; water­tight doors, operated by electricity or mechanically.
SENATOR SMITH: Were those water­tight compartments known to the passengers or crew?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: They must have been.
SENATOR SMITH: How would they know it?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: By the plans distributed about the ship.
SENATOR SMITH: Were they advised at any time that there were water­tight compartments ­ about how many?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Forty or fifty.
SENATOR SMITH: Were they advised that there were 40 or 50 water­tight compartments?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I could not say, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: You heard nothing of that kind and gave no such warning yourself?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Are you able to say whether any of the crew or passengers took to these upper water­tight compartments as a final, last resort; I mean as a place to die?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I am quite unable to say, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Is that at all likely?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir; very unlikely.
SENATOR SMITH: As for yourself, you preferred to take your chance in the open sea?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Undoubtedly.
SENATOR SMITH: Where were those compartments with reference to the boat deck?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Below the boat deck, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: How far below?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: They extend from the bottom of the ship about four decks up.
SENATOR SMITH: Would they extend up as high as 50 feet?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: About that.
SENATOR SMITH: Above the water?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Oh, they are above the water line; they extend above the water line.
SENATOR SMITH: Are they all above the water line?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir; from the bottom of the ship up to above the water line.
SENATOR SMITH: Have you been in any of the water­tight compartments of the Titanic?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I have been in all of them.
SENATOR SMITH: What are these doors made of?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: As far as I understand, of metal for that purpose.
SENATOR SMITH: And how are they fastened? Are they locked by bar, or bolt, or key?
