Thereupon, at 2:30 o'clock p. m., the committee took a recess until 3:30 o'clock p.m.
AFTERNOON SESSION
The committee met, pursuant to the taking of recess, at 3:45 o'clock p.m.
TESTIMONY OF SECOND OFFICER C. H. LIGHTOLLER ­ Resumed
SENATOR SMITH: You have already been sworn. You were the second officer, and are the ranking surviving officer, of the Titanic?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: My examination of you in New York went as far as I care to go at the present time, and I will see if my colleagues care to ask anything. Senator Burton, do you desire to ask anything?
SENATOR BURTON: No.
SENATOR SMITH: Senator Bourne?
SENATOR BOURNE: I would like to ask Mr. Lightoller a few questions. As I understand, you had 15 compartments, in effect, on the Titanic?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir.
SENATOR BOURNE: You had a false bottom, which gave top doors there to each compartment, that could be closed by electricity in 15 seconds?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Quite right.
SENATOR BOURNE: The side doors had to be closed by hand, and you estimate they could be closed in about 20 seconds?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: The upper doors.
SENATOR BOURNE: Providing the men were there. Your inference is that all those doors were closed in the compartments?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes. I am given to understand from passengers that every discipline was shown among the stewards. They all went to their water­tight doors and closed them.
SENATOR BOURNE: Taking the boiler room, each boiler room acts as a compartment by itself, does it not?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: It does.
SENATOR BOURNE: You had a false bottom below the boiler room which was a compartment?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Exactly.
SENATOR BOURNE: And a protection. Was there a bulkhead beside the boilers, between the boilers themselves and the skin of the ship?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: There was?
SENATOR BOURNE: Could that be closed, so that if the outside should be pierced and the water come into the bulkheads, it would not come over and flood the boiler room?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I do not think so. That I can not answer for certain.
SENATOR BOURNE: Who would have that knowledge?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: An engineer.
SENATOR BOURNE: But your impression is that there was an opening there so that it would flood the boiler in case the skin of the ship were pierced?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: That is so.
SENATOR BOURNE: Is it not customary with naval vessels, men­of­war, to have those bulkheads between the skin and boilers, so that there is absolute protection, and in case the skin is pierced, that they are water­tight, and water does not get into the boiler room?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: It is a protection from shell fire.
SENATOR BOURNE: Would it not be a protection also from water, in case the skin were pierced?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Providing the skin was pierced by a shell. It would prevent the water from entering into the boiler room; but it would be not sufficient protection against a ram.
SENATOR BOURNE: Would it not be protection against an iceberg in case of a disaster of this nature?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: An iceberg, I should say, in that case would take the position of a ram. It might, or on the other hand it might not, afford sufficient protection.
SENATOR BOURNE: The likelihood is that you would get better protection by having that bulkhead water­tight, is it not?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes.
SENATOR BOURNE: And would protect the boiler room to that extent?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes.
SENATOR BOURNE: Taking the experience that you passed through, in your judgment as a navigator, what improvements could be made in the maritime laws or in the rules and regulations governing the operation of a ship?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I could not answer that without serious consideration. I am not in a positionI have not been able to give the matter sufficient thought ­ to justly answer that question here. There is no doubt we might make some improvements, which shipbuilders are trying to do all the time, and the White Star, as far as I know them, in particular. We have instructions, particularly to the commander and officers. As far as our side of it is concerned ­ the officers on deck ­ every suggestion we have to offer is met with every consideration, and is deeply considered, as I have proof, by the captain, and anything that tends toward the improvement of the ship, or members of the ship, is immediately carried out.
SENATOR BOURNE: Do you not think there is an opportunity to benefit by the recent experience in the way of improvements, either in legislation or in the way of rules and regulations?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No doubt.
SENATOR BOURNE: But you yourself have come to no conclusions?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Not just now, sir.
SENATOR BOURNE: Is it your opinion that a searchlight would be a benefit or a detriment on a ship?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I should require practical experience with it before I could offer an opinion on that.
SENATOR BOURNE: It would certainly be of benefit after a catastrophe, or in case of a collision, would it not?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Searchlights are beneficial; and, on the other hand, they are detrimental in many instances.
SENATOR BOURNE: They would be detrimental prior to the accident, possibly.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Searchlights are detrimental in this manner: They are of every assistance to the people who are behind them, but those on whom the searchlight is shining might as well have their eyes closed; they are blinded. If we are going into a harbor, and, as frequently happens in the Harbor of Plymouth, a man­of­war and the shore stations may be having torpedo attack, in which case searchlights are being used to a very great extent, we find them so detrimental that a signal has been arranged between the Mercantile Marine and the Admiralty by which we can notify the Admiralty when we come in, that they may put out their searchlights. Let a searchlight shine on the bridge of a ship entering the port, and we are completely blinded, and can see nothing.
SENATOR BOURNE: Then, in your opinion, it would be a detriment rather than a benefit to have legislation requiring ships in commerce to carry searchlights?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir; I say that it is detrimental to those on whom the light is shining, but beneficial to those who are behind the light.
SENATOR BOURNE: In this case it would not have been detrimental to the iceberg, if it was an iceberg?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Certainly not.
SENATOR BOURNE: It would have been beneficial to the Titanic and those on board, would it, in your judgment?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I should judge so, offhand. But I should need to practice with it at nighttime myself before I could form any decided opinion.
SENATOR BOURNE: The principal reliance is placed upon the man in the crow's nest, or the men in the crow's nest?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: We place no reliance on them.
SENATOR BOURNE: What are they there for?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: They are there to keep a lookout; to assist us.
SENATOR BOURNE: Then, why is no reliance placed upon them?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Because, speaking personally, I never rely on any lookout. I keep a lookout myself, and so does every other officer.
SENATOR BOURNE: Then, it is merely to afford a dual opportunity of getting sight of things that you utilize the crow's nest and the men in it?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: We use the men in the crow's nest for keeping a lookout. Occasionally a man will see a light or a vessel first, particularly in daytime, when naturally we trust to them seeing. Especially all through the daytime lookout men are keeping a keen lookout, and will report a steamer long before she is in sight, apparently, by her smoke. In that instance the lookout might be very useful. In nighttime, particularly in channels where there are a great many lights, we may be watching one light, and there may be another light in our course, and the man in the crow's nest will strike, say, one bell. That signifies something on the port bow, and calls our attention to it. So that no ship can approach close to us without the bridge being notified, even though the officer has not himself already seen it. The White Star Co., I may say incidentally, is the only company in the world, so far as I know, that carries six lookout men. We carry six men who do nothing else, night and day, from the commencement to the finish of the voyage, except keep a lookout. They are two hours on and four off.
SENATOR BOURNE: Two hours on and four off?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Exactly.
SENATOR BOURNE: And the glasses are used by the individual only after the naked eye has picked up the object?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Each man uses them as he wishes. Different men have different ideas of the glasses, and of using them. Some keep them glued to their eyes altogether. I consider that very detrimental.
SENATOR BOURNE: That is all I care to ask.
SENATOR BURTON: Would it not be worth while to carry searchlights on trans­Atlantic liners just for the sake of picking up ice in a locality like this?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: It would be an advantage to carry a searchlight if it is going to be of any benefit at all. If it can be proved beneficial, it would be an advantage.
SENATOR BURTON: Would it not be useful in detecting ice on a dark night?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: That I could not say without experience with it.
SENATOR BURTON: What about the crew of the Titanic? How many were there in the crew?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: As far as I remember, 71 all told, officers and men, on deck. The crew ­ I am speaking of the seamen now.
SENATOR BURTON: Do you regard that as an adequate number?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: That I can not say.
SENATOR BURTON: How large a crew would there be on the Majestic, for instance?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: We had, I think, 58.
SENATOR BURTON: What is the tonnage of the Majestic?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Ten thousand gross.
SENATOR BURTON: Were there any women left on the deck?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Of the Titanic?
SENATOR BURTON: Yes.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: On the port side on deck, I can say, as far as my own observations went, from my own endeavor and that of others to obtain women, there were none. I can give you the name of a man who will give testimony, who was working with me, one of our best men, a man I picked out especially to man the falls for lowering away.
He went from the port side to the starboard side of the deck, as I did, and after that, when she went under water forward, instead of taking to the water he walked aft the whole length of the boat deck previous to sliding down the aft fall on the port side, and in the whole length of the deck and in crossing the bridge he saw two women. They were standing amidships on the bridge perfectly still. They did not seem to be endeavoring to get to one side or the other to see if there were any boats or not. The whole length of the boat deck, so far as he went, he did not see any women.
SENATOR BURTON: Do you know what became of those two women?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I do not.
SENATOR BURTON: How many compartments were opened by this collision with the iceberg, in your opinion?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I should judge the fore­peak tank was pierced. My reason for saying that is that the lamp­trimmer's and storekeeper's room was on the starboard side there, and they were both turned in. They felt the shock. They turned out and had a look around under the forecastle head, and there seemed to be nothing doing, and they went back to bed. They were, I suppose, closer to the point of impact than anyone else in the ship.
SENATOR BURTON: That is the very forward compartment, is it?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I am speaking of these two men's room. After they had gone back to bed a few minutes, the junior came along and told these men, "You had better put your pants on." So they got up again. This time they went forward and the chief officer was there, and they heard a whistling sound. On locating this, they found it was the exhaust pipe from the fore­peak tank; that is, the tank down in the bottom of the ship. They put their hands over this pipe and found the air was rushing out, proving that water was entering the fore peak. They looked in the storeroom and they could see right down on the tank top, and it was dry, proving that if she received any injury it was below the fore peak. Therefore, that leaves us with the fore peak full and the storerooms dry.
I judge No. 1, of which I have no proof, was pierced, and No. 2 and I should think No. 3.
SENATOR BURTON: Do you think No. 4 was pierced?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: There is no No. 4. No. 4 is No. 6 stokehold. You next come to No. 6 stokehold.
SENATOR BURTON: Was that pierced, do you think?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir; I do not.
SENATOR BURTON: So the injury was confined, in your judgment, to the three compartments?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes.
SENATOR BOURNE: I understand you have some information in regard to the messages to the Cedric, and in regard to some conversations with Mr. Ismay. Please state them both.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Previous to having the conversation with Mr. Ismay in regard to any telegrams that were sent to our office in New York with reference to holding the Cedric, the other three officers and myself had spoken about it casually, saying we knew the Cedric was in, and we thought it a jolly good idea if we could get home with her if we were in time to catch her. We were very much disappointed at the delay through fog. We were saying all the time, "It is a great pity if we will miss the Cedric. If we could only get home in time to get everybody on board the Cedric, we shall probably be able to keep the men together as much as possible." Otherwise, you understand, once the men get in New York, naturally these men are not going to hang around New York or hang around anywhere else. They want to get to sea to earn money to keep their wives and families, and they would ship off. You can not find a sailor but what will ship off at once if he gets the opportunity. They simply would stand this off as a loss or stand it off as a bad debt, and probably try to ship off somewhere. In a case like this, where the men are brought into prominence, they are very frequently offered berths immediately. Certain of the steerage passengers were offered berths by the saloon passengers. They were offered berths to go and be servants, or whatever it was until they found employment.
