Our crew would in all probability have done the same, and we would have lost a number of them, probably some very important witnesses. They would perhaps ship on some yacht, which very often they do. A great many of them, quartermasters especially, ship on gentlemen's yachts in New York, because they know they are thoroughly capable men. They are just as good men as they can obtain in the world, and there is a great demand for them; much to our regret, because we lose them.
On having a conversation with Mr. Ismay he also mentioned about the Cedric and asked me my opinion about it, and I frankly stated that it was the best thing in the world to do if we could catch the Cedric.
Later on he remarked that owing to weather conditions it was very doubtful if we would catch the Cedric. I said, "Yes; it is doubtful. It will be a great pity if she sails without us." "Do you think it will be advisable to hold her up?" I said, "Most undoubtedly; the best thing in the world to hold her up."
A telegram was dispatched asking them to hold the Cedric until we got in, to which we received the reply that it was not advisable to hold the Cedric. He asked what I thought about it. I said, "I think we ought to hold her, and you ought to telegraph and insist on their holding her and preventing the crew getting around in New York." We discussed the pros and cons and deemed it advisable to keep the crew together as much as we could, so we could get home, and we might then be able to choose our important witnesses and let the remainder go to sea and earn money for themselves. So I believe the other telegram was sent.
I may say that at that time Mr. Ismay did not seem to me to be in a mental condition to finally decide anything. I tried my utmost to rouse Mr. Ismay, for he was obsessed with the idea, and kept repeating, that he ought to have gone down with the ship because he found that women had gone down. I told him there was no such reason; I told him a very great deal; I tried to get the idea out of his head, but he was taken with it; and I know the doctor tried, too; but we had difficulty in arousing Mr. Ismay, purely owing to that, wholly and solely, that women had gone down in the boat and he had not.
You can call the doctor of the Carpathia, and he will verify that statement.
SENATOR BOURNE: Is that all you desire to say?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: That is all, sir.
SENATOR BOURNE: That is all I desire to ask.
SENATOR NEWLANDS: I heard Mr. Lightoller in New York, and I simply desire to ask one question. You say a searchlight is not detrimental to those behind it?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir.
SENATOR NEWLANDS: But it is detrimental to those on whom it shines?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes.
SENATOR NEWLANDS: Then would you say a searchlight would or would not be desirable? How would the use of a searchlight be in any sense detrimental to a ship at sea?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: These gentlemen spoke about after we had left the ship, you understand, and a searchlight being used then. It was that time to which I had reference. If you had shone a searchlight on the boats as they were being lowered, or on the boats as they were being unhooked from the tackles in the water, it would have been very detrimental to the men in the boat. They could not have seen what they were doing. We are far better off in the dark, because anyone that shines a light on us blinds us.
SENATOR NEWLANDS: In discerning objects at sea­­­
MR. LIGHTOLLER: (interrupting). In discerning objects at sea, for instance, I will give a case in point. If you were coming up on a schooner, you can not see her distinctly. She shows no light; around about Nantucket and in along Long Island, I mean. They may have a light burning, and it may be invisible, being screened right across your bows, and you may not be able to distinguish immediately which way she is heading, in the dusk or in the dark. If you had a searchlight then to put right straight on that ship, instantly you would be guided as to which way to put your helm.
As it is, if you can not show any light there is nothing to guide you; and you are fairly close to her, and you have to alter your helm, and give the ship you are in plenty of helm in case you should happen to be crossing her bows. Of course, we always go around a vessel's stern when we can see her stern.
SENATOR NEWLANDS: In that case the use of a searchlight would be beneficial, would it not?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: It would be beneficial if you could use it as quick as you can an ordinary lamp, by merely pressing a key. But you understand they would have to be very careful with them, they have to be kept covered up.
SENATOR NEWLANDS: But in navigating, with a view of discerning objects that may be in the way or near the way of the ship's course, can you imagine that a searchlight would be at all detrimental to that ship?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: You must take into consideration that if anyone is going to have them, all are going to have them; and if you are in a crowded channel, like the English Channel, and another ship has the same idea you have, and you are flickering your searchlights around on each other, you will cause a great deal of difficulty. There would have to be legislation to prevent your using your searchlight in close waters. You could not use the searchlight anywhere the shipping is crowded.
SENATOR NEWLANDS: If two ships were approaching each other, each with as searchlight, you think the use of the searchlights might be a source of danger to each of them?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I have no doubt of it, unless they were compelled ­ they would have to legislate and arrange it in some manner so that one ship would not blind the other.
SENATOR NEWLANDS: That is all.
SENATOR SMITH: You say you do not regard the lookout in the crow's nest as important?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Oh, no; I did not say that, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: What did you say?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: This gentleman [indicating the reporter] will read what I said.
SENATOR FLETCHER: He said he did not rely on them.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I said I did not rely on them.
SENATOR FLETCHER: That is what I understood him to say.
SENATOR SMITH: Why are the eyes of the lookouts examined?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: To prove that they can see clearly and distinctly. They are there to offer us every assistance they can.
SENATOR SMITH: Why are they furnished with a telephone and various bells, the prompt use of which is intended to advise the officers of obstacles in the way?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: They are there to assist us and to keep a lookout.
SENATOR SMITH: Are there any other men who were employed on the Titanic, that you know of, or who are employed in the White Star Line, who receive fixed pay and a certain percentage over?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Other than the lookouts?
SENATOR SMITH: No; I did not ask that.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: The lookouts receive so much per month, the same as the men, and then they get 5 shillings per voyage of what we call "lookout money."
SENATOR SMITH: That is lookout money?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Not only that, but they get other unofficial benefits.
SENATOR SMITH: Do any other officers or members of the crew receive that additional compensation?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Not on the same scale.
SENATOR SMITH: Not on the same scale? On any scale?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes; the quartermasters receive 5 shillings a month extra.
SENATOR SMITH: They are the only officers that receive extra?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: They are not officers; they are petty officers.
SENATOR SMITH: They are the only ones?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: The only ones; yes.
SENATOR SMITH: Are experienced men usually selected for the lookouts?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Speaking for myself, I always select old lookout men that I know; and as a rule, the lookout men run perhaps a year in the crow's nest in one ship. For instance, the men I had with me on the Titanic had been with me on the Oceanic for years, doing nothing but keeping a lookout. They have their other special duties at other times, as well.
SENATOR SMITH: Do they get to be expert in detecting objects on the horizon?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: They do. They are very smart at it, indeed. There is one man here, who has been subpoenaed, who is the smartest man I know at it.
SENATOR SMITH: What is his name?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Symons.
SENATOR SMITH: He has been subpoenaed?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Was he in the crow's nest the night of the disaster?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: He was in there after his watch came on. Up to that time he had not been on watch that night. He had been on watch in the afternoon.
SENATOR SMITH: But not on the watch extending from 10 to 12 o'clock?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir; Fleet and Lee were there then.
SENATOR SMITH: As I understand you in your testimony in New York, your watch expired at 10 o'clock Sunday night?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: That is so.
SENATOR SMITH: If I recollect properly, you took charge of loading the lifeboats.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: On the port side.
SENATOR SMITH: On the port side.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: The chief officer also loaded some of the boats on the port side. I may also say, in regard to the testimony in regard to Mr. Ismay, although I can not vouch for the source, yet it was given to me from a source such that I have every reason to believe its truth­­
SENATOR SMITH: Before or since this occurred?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Since.
SENATOR SMITH: When?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: On the Carpathia.
SENATOR SMITH: En route to New York?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes.
SENATOR SMITH: Or after she had arrived?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Before she arrived in New York.
SENATOR SMITH: Give the information.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: It is that Chief Officer Wilde was at the starboard collapsible boat in which Mr. Ismay went away, and that he told Mr. Ismay, "There are no more women on board the ship." Wilde was a pretty big, powerful chap, and he was a man that would not argue very long. Mr. Ismay was right there. Naturally he was there close to the boat, because he was working at the boats and he had been working at the collapsible boat, and that is why he was there, and Mr. Wilde, who was near him, simply bundled him into the boat.
SENATOR SMITH: You did not say that before?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No; but I believe it is true. I forget the source. I am sorry I have forgotten it.
SENATOR SMITH: Did Mr. Wilde survive?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: He did not.
SENATOR SMITH: Who relieved you on watch that night at 10 o'clock?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: The first officer, Mr. Murdock.
SENATOR SMITH: Did he survive?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: He did not.
SENATOR SMITH: Who told you that this powerful officer, Mr. Wilde, ordered Mr. Ismay to get into the boat?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I do not know.
SENATOR SMITH: As I now recollect your testimony ­ and I have it here ­ you said you were not acquainted with Mr. Ismay.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I have known Mr. Ismay for 14 years, since I first met him.
SENATOR SMITH: You did not speak to him that night?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I did.
SENATOR SMITH: You told me that you looked at one another, and said nothing.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I might not have spoken and I might have said, "Good evening."
SENATOR SMITH: I mean after the collision­­
MR. LIGHTOLLER: After the collision; no.
SENATOR SMITH: One moment. After the collision, you said, you saw Mr. Ismay standing on the deck?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes.
SENATOR SMITH: Looking out at the sea?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I do not know what he was looking at.
SENATOR SMITH: You were standing out on the deck about 20 feet from him?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: You say now that you did not say that?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Would not that be true?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I do not think so. I was walking along that side of the deck.
SENATOR SMITH: How far from Mr. Ismay?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I walked past him, within a couple of feet of him.
SENATOR SMITH: And he said nothing to you, and you said nothing to him?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I might have said, "Good evening." Beyond that I said nothing. I had work on hand; something else to do.
SENATOR SMITH: Did he say anything else to you?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Not that I know of. He may have said "Good evening." Perhaps I said that, and perhaps I did not. I do not remember.
SENATOR SMITH: In a great peril like that, passing the managing director of the company that owned the ship, you passed him on the ship, and said, "Good evening"?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I would, as I would to any passenger that I knew.
SENATOR SMITH: And he passed you and said "Good evening"?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: He was standing still.
SENATOR SMITH: And he said "Good evening"?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I could not say. I say I may have said "Good evening" and may not, and he may have said it and may not.
SENATOR SMITH: I only want to know as well as you can recollect.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I can not say for certain.
SENATOR SMITH: My recollection of the testimony is that you said you did not speak to him.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I am not certain. If I did speak, it was purely to say "Good evening" and nothing more and nothing less. I spoke to Mr. ­­
SENATOR SMITH: How long was that after the collision?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I think you will find that in the testimony.
SENATOR SMITH: I know I will find it there, but I want it again. Your recollection is just a little better to­day that it was the other day, and I would like to test it out a little.
MR. LIGHTOLLER: My mind was fresher on it then, perhaps, than it is now.
The question was read by the stenographer, as follows:
How long was that after the collision?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Oh, perhaps half an hour.
SENATOR SMITH: How many lifeboats had been loaded?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: None had been loaded.
SENATOR SMITH: Had the order been given to clear away?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Had you started to clear away?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Yes, sir; I was walking around the deck then distributing the men all around the deck, taking off boat covers.
SENATOR SMITH: Removing boat covers and distributing the men?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Distributing the men to the boats, and they were removing boat covers.
SENATOR SMITH: What men were distributing?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: Seamen.
SENATOR SMITH: How many at each boat?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: As many as I thought necessary.
SENATOR SMITH: How many did you think necessary?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: As many as I had.
SENATOR SMITH: How many did you get?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I could not say. The watch below was coming up all the time.
SENATOR SMITH: Did you get more than three or four?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: I could not say. About three or four.
SENATOR SMITH: Did you get 8 or 10?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No; about three or four.
SENATOR SMITH: You were placing these men at the different stations, removing the covers from the lifeboats, and preparing to load and lower them?
MR. LIGHTOLLER: No.
SENATOR SMITH: Well, the order had been given to clear away, had it not?
