Subcommittee of the Committee on Commerce, United States Senate,
Washington, D.C.
The subcommittee met at 10 o'clock a.m.
Present: Senators Smith (chairman), Burton, and, Fletcher.
TESTIMONY OF EDWARD J. DUNN
Mr. Dunn was sworn by the chairman.
SENATOR BURTON: Where do you reside, Mr. Dunn?
MR. DUNN: Beechhurst, Long Island.
SENATOR SMITH: How old are you?
MR. DUNN: Thirty­five years old.
SENATOR SMITH: What is your business?
MR. DUNN: Salesman.
SENATOR SMITH: What do you know, Mr. Dunn, with reference to the receipt of a telegram addressed to "Islefrank," or "Franklin," and received by an operator on Monday morning, April 15, about 8 o'clock? Kindly tell us.
MR. DUNN: On April 18, at luncheon, with an acquaintance, we were discussing the disaster of the Titanic, and also the supposed reinsurance of the cargo; and we wondered why it was that the news was held back until Monday morning. The question arose that there were rumors that there was a telegram delivered at Western Union office to be delivered, or a message had been received by wireless addressed to Islefrank; and the wireless people, not knowing who Islefrank was, in turn turned that telegram over to the Western Union people to deliver to Islefrank. It appears that the telegram was delivered at the White Star office between half past 7 and 8 o'clock that Monday morning.
SENATOR BURTON: One moment. What is the source of this information? You say: "It appears."
SENATOR SMITH: I am going to run that down, Judge, in just a moment. These questions are merely preliminary. Go right ahead and state just what you know about the matter, Mr. Dunn.
MR. DUNN: That ends the conversation regarding the telegram. That ends with simply the fact that the company delivered it between half past 7 and 8 o'clock that Monday morning.
SENATOR SMITH: I would like you to give me the name of your informant.
The witness did not reply.
SENATOR SMITH: Do you know his name?
MR. DUNN: I do.
SENATOR SMITH: I would like to have you give it to the committee.
MR. DUNN: I pledged my word that I would not disclose his name.
SENATOR SMITH: Did he exact that pledge from you?
MR. DUNN: He did.
SENATOR SMITH: Have you since tried to be released from that pledge?
MR. DUNN: I have.
SENATOR SMITH: When did you last see your information?
MR. DUNN: At five minutes to 6 last night.
SENATOR SMITH: Where?
MR. DUNN: At the Pennsylvania depot.
SENATOR SMITH: What did he say to you?
MR. DUNN: He agreed to come on here this morning to testify.
SENATOR SMITH: Did he come?
MR. DUNN: He did not.
SENATOR SMITH: Under the circumstances, it seems to me that it would be very proper for you to give the committee his name, on account of his failure to keep his word.
MR. DUNN: The only thing I have from him is simply a telegram received from him. Here is the telegram.
SENATOR SMITH: Just read it, please, for the information of the committee.
MR. DUNN: [reading]: Regret circumstances do not permit departure. No sig.
SENATOR SMITH: It is signed: "No sig."; dated, "Brooklyn, N.Y., April 29­12," and addressed: "Edward J. Dunn." Down in the left hand corners is the notation "11:45 p.m."
I ask you again, Mr. Dunn, to give me the name of your informant.
MR. DUNN: I can not do it.
SENATOR SMITH: I must insist upon it, Mr. Dunn. I dislike very much to press you.
MR. DUNN: I tried to communicate with this gentleman this morning by telephone, and I have been informed that he was not at his place of business. Usually he arrives there very early, and it was 8:15 when I telephoned him, and he had not been there up to that time.
SENATOR SMITH: What is his business?
MR. DUNN: He is engaged in the same business I am in.
SENATOR SMITH: What is that?
MR. DUNN: Importing wall papers.
SENATOR SMITH: I think I shall insist, Mr. Dunn, that you give us his name. My associates say that we must have his name.
MR. DUNN: I regret it very much, Senator, but I can not give it to you.
SENATOR SMITH: Of course, you can see its importance.
MR. DUNN: I realize the fact that it is important.
SENATOR SMITH: Did your informant advise you what the result would be if you gave his name to the public?
MR. DUNN: It was simply a matter of protecting his father.
SENATOR SMITH: What did he say about his father?
MR. DUNN: He said his father had been a man who was employed by the Western Union people for a great many years, a man pretty well advanced in years, and he said that if this matter came out, knowing he was the one who was supposed to have this information, he would lose his position.
SENATOR SMITH: Just retire from the stand a moment, Mr. Dunn, and go to my office.
I want to call Mr. Morgan for just a moment. He is the deputy marshal from Cleveland.
The witness was sworn by the chairman
TESTIMONY OF MR. CHARLES H. MORGAN.
SENATOR SMITH: What is your full name?
MR. MORGAN: Charles H. Morgan
SENATOR SMITH: Where do you live?
MR. MORGAN: Cleveland, Ohio
SENATOR SMITH: What position do you hold?
MR. MORGAN: Deputy United States marshal.
SENATOR SMITH: As such deputy marshal, did you bring Luis Klein from Cleveland to Washington?
MR. MORGAN: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Was he in your custody while here?
MR. MORGAN: Well, I was with him ­ trying to be with him ­ yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Did he sign this paper [handing witness paper]?
MR. MORGAN: I did not see him personally, but I know that he did, because it came out from the office.
SENATOR SMITH: In consequence of that, no process was served on him?
MR. MORGAN: I think not; no, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: I want to read this in the record, in order that the record may dispose of this witness properly.
Senator Smith read the paper referred to in full, as follows
Office of the United States Attorney,
Northern District of Ohio,
Cleveland, Ohio, April 22, 1912.
The United States Attorney, and The United States Marshal, Cleveland, Ohio.
Gentlemen: I hereby waive issuance and service of process and subpoena on me in the matter of the investigation of the so­called Titanic disaster, before the United States Senate subcommittee, and voluntarily consent to be taken by the United States marshal from Cleveland, Ohio to Washington, D.C. for the purpose of giving my testimony before said committee. LUIS KLEIN.
SENATOR SMITH: Do you know what has become of this witness?
MR. MORGAN: No.
SENATOR SMITH: Do you know when he departed from his temporary abode here?
MR. MORGAN: We got here Tuesday morning, and I saw him up to 11o'clock Tuesday night, and was to bring him up here. I was to get him up and help him ­ get him out of bed at 8 o'clock; but it seems he left the hotel at 7 o'clock, leaving what few things he had. He went out without his collar and necktie.
SENATOR SMITH: And he has not been seen since?
MR. MORGAN: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Have you endeavored to find him?
MR. MORGAN: Yes, sir. I immediately notified the people here, and have been following instructions, trying to locate the man.
SENATOR SMITH: You have not succeeded?
MR. MORGAN: No, sir.
SENATOR FLETCHER: Had anybody seen him during the night?
MR. MORGAN: Nobody did; no, sir ­ that is, according to everybody at the hotel; and I know that no one saw him up to 11 o'clock at night.
SENATOR FLETCHER: Did you stop at the same hotel with him?
MR. MORGAN: I did, yes, sir; and the night clerk and the bell boys and all said there was not anyone with him ­ at least to the best of their knowledge. I am very positive they did not.
SENATOR FLETCHER: That is all.
SENATOR SMITH: That is all. You may be excused, and you need not remain any longer under the orders of the committee.
MR. FRANKLIN: Mr. Chairman, might I suggest that a copy of that testimony be sent to the president or other officers of the Western Union Telegraph Co.?
SENATOR SMITH: Which testimony?
MR. FRANKLIN: Mr. Dunn's.
SENATOR SMITH: That it be sent­­­
MR. FRANKLIN: To the president or other officers of the Western Union Telegraph Co., informing them that this has been information given out by one of their employees and asking them to produce the message.
SENATOR SMITH: I have tried very hard to get the message, and I have tried to get the employees. Will you take the same course in this matter as you did yesterday?
MR. FRANKLIN: Absolutely.
SENATOR SMITH: You will waive all questions of right?
MR. FRANKLIN: Absolutely; and every point connected with any telegrams or wireless messages or cable. I should like to have this sifted to the bottom if it can be.
SENATOR SMITH: That has been my effort, and I have tried my best; and I am not going to slacken any.
MR. FRANKLIN: That is right, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Is Mr. Bishop in the room?
There was no response.
SENATOR SMITH: Is Mrs. Bishop in the room?
There was no response.
SENATOR SMITH: Is Col. Gracie here?
There was no response.
SENATOR SMITH: Mr. Ismay, will you take the stand, please?
TESTIMONY OF J. BRUCE ISMAY ­Recalled
SENATOR SMITH: Mr. Ismay, you were sworn in New York.
MR. ISMAY: I was, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: I desire to ask you a few questions in addition to those I asked you the other day. I believe you said your state room was on A deck?
MR. ISMAY: .On B deck.
SENATOR SMITH: On B deck; No. 56.
MR. ISMAY: I am not sure whether I said 52 or 56; but a gentleman who was on the stand yesterday said he had 52, and if he had, I could not have had it. I must have been in 56, I think.
SENATOR SMITH: How long have you been the managing director of the International Mercantile Marine Co.?
MR. ISMAY: .The general manager?
SENATOR SMITH: Yes; how long have you held the office you now hold?
MR. ISMAY: I think since about 1910, sir. I succeeded Mr. Griscom.
SENATOR SMITH: In such position, what were your duties?
MR. ISMAY: I had general control of the steamship business of the International Mercantile Marine Co.
SENATOR SMITH: And its constituent companies?
MR. ISMAY: Yes, sir; with the exception of the Leyland Line. I think the captain of the Californian said I had control of the Leyland Line. That is not correct. The Leyland Line has its own general manager and its own board of directors.
SENATOR SMITH: Is its stock owned by your company?
MR. ISMAY: Controlled ­ not entirely. There is a certain amount of stock held altogether by outside individuals.
SENATOR SMITH: Is the majority of stock owned by your company?
MR. ISMAY: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: So that you are in a position to control the Leyland Line if you care to do so?
MR. ISMAY: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: And the steamship Californian is one of the ships of the Leyland Line?
MR. ISMAY: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: How many steamship lines are under the control of your company?
MR. ISMAY: There is the American Line­­
SENATOR SMITH: [interposing]. In naming them I would like to have you, if you will, name the routes or principal ports of call of these various lines.
MR. ISMAY: Of the whole fleet, sir?
SENATOR SMITH: Of the whole fleet; yes.
MR. ISMAY: We have the American Line of steamers, which run between Southampton and New York. They also have service between Philadelphia and Liverpool. We have the Atlantic Transport Line, which runs from New York to London, from Philadelphia to London, and from Baltimore to Antwerp and London.
There is the White Star Line that runs from New York to Liverpool, from New York to Southampton; from Liverpool to Australia, and from Liverpool to New Zealand; from New York to the Mediterranean, and from Boston to the Mediterranean; from Montreal to Liverpool­the White Star Line also.
We have the Mississippi & Dominion Line that runs steamers from Montreal to Liverpool; and the British North Atlantic that runs steamers from Montreal to Liverpool and from Montreal to Avonmouth. The Leyland Line runs from Boston to Liverpool, from Boston to London, to the West Indies, and down to some South American ports, and to New Orleans.
The White Star Line runs from New York to Antwerp, from Antwerp to Boston, and then down from Boston to Philadelphia and Baltimore. I think that is all, as far as I can remember.
SENATOR SMITH: Have you any lines to Australia?
MR. ISMAY: Yes; the White Star Line runs from London to Australia. They go from Liverpool to Australia, and come from Australia back to London, and then on to Liverpool, calling at the Cape of Good Hope outward and inward bound. The New Zealand steamers from London go out by the Cape of Good Hope and come home by Cape Horn.
SENATOR SMITH: Have you any lines to Brazil?
MR. ISMAY: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Or Buenos Aires.
MR. ISMAY: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: I mean the Argentine.
MR. ISMAY: There may be tramp steamers going down there with coal, but we have no regularly established lines.
SENATOR SMITH: Is there any service other than that which you have described to the Mediterranean?
MR. ISMAY: No, sir; simply from New York to the Mediterranean, and from Boston to the Mediterranean.
SENATOR SMITH: Touching at all the principal ports of the Mediterranean?
MR. ISMAY: Yes, sir; Gibraltar and Naples and Algiers, and right through to Alexandria.
SENATOR SMITH: How many ships constitute this fleet?
MR. ISMAY: I am afraid I could not tell you. I think it amounts to about a million tons altogether, in round figures. I do not know the number. You will find the number in that report for 1910 which Mr. Franklin gave you, the International Mercantile Marine Co.'s report, showing the names of all the steamers and the tonnage.
SENATOR SMITH: Is the investment in ships of your company its principal and only investment?
MR. ISMAY: Yes, sir; I should think so. All the money we have is invested in ships or works appertaining to the ships; that is, works that we keep going for the ships, repair shops and those kind of things; nothing outside of that.
SENATOR SMITH: What I was getting at was the question of whether your company built any of its own vessels.
MR. ISMAY: No, sir. We would only do the ordinary repairs; what we call the voyage repairs.
SENATOR SMITH: I think the record shows that the capitalization and bonded indebtedness of your company aggregates about $153,000,000?
MR. ISMAY: Yes, sir. Mr. Franklin gave that in his testimony.
SENATOR SMITH: Is this amount represented, so far as you are able to say, by the property you have described?
MR. ISMAY: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Are you interested personally or is your company interested in the shipbuilding firm of Harland & Wolff?
MR. ISMAY: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: They were the builders of the Titanic, were they not?
MR. ISMAY: Messrs. Harland & Wolff, of Belfast, built the Titanic; yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Have they built other ships for your company?
