MR. ISMAY: They built practically the whole fleet of the White Star Line.
SENATOR SMITH: Including the Olympic and the Baltic?
MR. ISMAY: The Olympic and the Baltic and all those ships.
SENATOR SMITH: Under whose immediate supervision has that work been done?
MR. ISMAY: Lord Pirrie is chairman of the company.
SENATOR SMITH: He is chairman of the building company?
MR. ISMAY: He is chairman of the building company.
SENATOR SMITH: Has Mr. Andrews held­­
MR. ISMAY: [interrupting]. He was one of the directors of Harland & Wolff.
SENATOR SMITH: He himself was a builder?
MR. ISMAY: Yes.
SENATOR SMITH: Was he an engineer?
MR. ISMAY: I would not call him an engineer. He was more of a designer, and was superintending the building of ships.
SENATOR SMITH: Did he have anything to do with building the Olympic?
MR. ISMAY: He had a great deal to do with designing the Olympic.
SENATOR SMITH: And he designed the Titanic?
MR. ISMAY: And he designed the Titanic.
SENATOR SMITH: And was one of its passengers on this ill­fated voyage?
MR. ISMAY: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: And he did not survive?
MR. ISMAY: He did not.
SENATOR SMITH: I have forgotten, Mr. Ismay, whether you were at Belfast when the trial trips of the Titanic were made.
MR. ISMAY: No, sir. As I came out on the first voyage of the ship. I did not go over for the trial trips.
SENATOR SMITH: Do you know whether Mr. Andrews was there at Belfast when the trial trips were made?
MR. ISMAY: I believe he was. I think he came around in the ship from Belfast to Southampton.
SENATOR SMITH: Do you know whether any officer or director of your company was at Belfast when the trial trips were made?
MR. ISMAY: Yes; Mr. Sanderson was on the ship.
SENATOR SMITH: What place did he hold?
MR. ISMAY: He is manager of the White Star Line and a director of the White Star Line. I think he is a director of the International Mercantile Marine Co., and one of the vice presidents. Mr. Sanderson was also on board the ship.
SENATOR SMITH: He was also a director.
MR. ISMAY: Of the International Mercantile Marine Co.; yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Did both of these directors make the voyage from Belfast to Southampton on the ship?
MR. ISMAY: Yes, sir; I believe so.
SENATOR SMITH: But neither of them was aboard the ship on the last voyage?
MR. ISMAY: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: What is the relationship of the vessels of the International Mercantile Marine Co., or any of its constituent companies, to the British Navy?
MR. ISMAY: I am afraid I do not understand quite what you mean?
SENATOR SMITH: I want to know whether any of the ships of your fleet are, by any arrangement with the British Government, auxiliary to their Navy?
MR. ISMAY: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: What mail contracts have you with the British Government or any other Government?
MR. ISMAY: We have a mail contract for carrying the mails from Southampton to New York for which we receive a lump­sum payment of £70,000 a year; $350,000 a year.
SENATOR SMITH: £70,000?
MR. ISMAY: That is the maximum payment that we can receive.
SENATOR SMITH: For that payment what are you supposed to do?
MR. ISMAY: We carry the mails from Southampton. We pick up the mails at Southampton, and then go on to Queenstown and pick up any mails that are there, and land them in New York.
SENATOR SMITH: In that contract is there any condition that you shall make any specific speed between Southampton and New York?
MR. ISMAY: No, sir. We are supposed to use the fastest ship we have in our fleet for the conveyance of the mails, but there is absolutely no penalty attached to our not making a special speed.
SENATOR SMITH: Is there any minimum?
MR. ISMAY: I think there is. I think there is a minimum; or we are not allowed to put the mails into ships that will go less than 16 knots, or something like that.
SENATOR SMITH: Is the arrangement that you have with the British postal authorities?
MR. ISMAY: Yes.
SENATOR SMITH: That arrangement provides that this mail shall be dispatched in the most direct and expeditious manner possible, and that you shall not loiter, at a minimum speed of less than 16 knots per hour?
MR. ISMAY: I think it is 16 knots, sir. The contract is printed. The contract is a public document.
SENATOR SMITH: You say that you are supposed to carry these mails on your fastest ships?
MR. ISMAY: Yes.
SENATOR SMITH: Have you any mail contracts with the Government of the United States?
MR. ISMAY: No, sir. Oh, I beg your pardon; I was speaking then of the White Star Line. The American Line has a contract.
SENATOR SMITH: What kind of contract is that?
MR. ISMAY: I think they get $4 a mile, and have to carry the mails. I do not know whether they receive any payment for the mails.
SENATOR SMITH: $4 per mile?
MR. ISMAY: Per mile.
SENATOR SMITH: Only per mile?
MR. ISMAY: Yes.
SENATOR SMITH: Not per ton?
MR. ISMAY: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: There is no ton requisite?
MR. ISMAY: No, sir; it is per mile.
SENATOR SMITH: And is that for mail service between New York and Southampton?
MR. ISMAY: Yes.
SENATOR SMITH: Have you any contract with the United States Government for mail service between New York or Boston and other ports than Southampton?
MR. ISMAY: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Is there any speed condition in the contract of the United States Government?
MR. ISMAY: I am really not conversant with that contract, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: I think you said you have no mail contracts with any other Governments?
MR. ISMAY: We have a mail contract with the Canadian Government. I think we get $1,000 a ship for taking the mails from Quebec to Liverpool.
SENATOR SMITH: Do you remember the term of years of your British contract?
MR. ISMAY: It is subject to 12­months' notice.
SENATOR SMITH: It is perpetual, with the privilege of discontinuing on 12­months' notice?
MR. ISMAY: Either side can give 12­months' notice, and discontinue the contract at any time.
SENATOR SMITH: It is subject to rearrangement?
MR. ISMAY: That would be the subject of negotiation between the post office and ourselves.
SENATOR SMITH: Are the terms of that contract subject to readjustment from time to time?
MR. ISMAY: No, sir; it is an absolutely set contract, subject to 12 months' notice.
SENATOR SMITH: In making that contract with the British Government, were you obliged to enter into competition with any rival line?
MR. ISMAY: No; I do not think so, sir. I think the arrangement was made between the White Star Line and the Cunard Co. and the Government.
SENATOR SMITH: Was the Cunard Co. the only competition that you had in that field?
MR. ISMAY: Yes. I do not know any other British company which has a contract with the British Government for carrying mail across the western ocean, at least, so far as England and the United States are concerned.
SENATOR SMITH: Then you have an arrangement between the Cunard Co. and your own company with reference to this contract?
MR. ISMAY: No; I would not say that. The Cunard Co. negotiated with the Government so far as they were concerned, and we negotiated with the Government so far as we were concerned.
SENATOR SMITH: Does the Cunard Co. receive any division of this income; does it receive any portion of this income of $350,000 a year?
MR. ISMAY: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: And is that the case with the American Government; does the same situation exist with the American Government?
MR. ISMAY: During the winter months we do not run four White Star steamers. We have been in the habit of running two White Star steamers and two American Line steamers, and the White Star Line always credits the American Line with their share of the mail matter; so that you might divide the mail matter into 52 weeks, one boat a week.
SENATOR SMITH: But there is no copartnership arrangement of any kind?
MR. ISMAY: Absolutely none.
SENATOR SMITH: Or any division of this income, as the result of an understanding between the two companies?
MR. ISMAY: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: In making the bid or proffering your ships for this service were you obliged to compete with any other company?
MR. ISMAY: No, sir; I do not think so.
SENATOR SMITH: In either contract?
MR. ISMAY: Of course, we simply get paid by the weight of the mail we carry from here. We have absolutely no contract with the United States Post Office Department. We are paid by weight.
SENATOR SMITH: Has the question of the speed of your ships entered into this postal arrangement in any way?
MR. ISMAY: From England?
SENATOR SMITH: From England.
MR. ISMAY: It must have done so; because naturally, they would not give a contract to any ships which were slow ships.
SENATOR SMITH: Is this item of $350,000 a year regarded as a desirable part of your income?
MR. ISMAY: Yes.
SENATOR SMITH: For that alone you would not be able to operate these big ships?
MR. ISMAY: No.
SENATOR SMITH: But in connection with your general business­­
MR. ISMAY: It all helps.
SENATOR SMITH: [continuing]. It all goes to make an inducement to build and operate these ships?
MR. ISMAY: Yes; but I do not think that £70,000 a year would induce anybody to build big ships.
SENATOR SMITH: No; not in itself?
MR. ISMAY: No, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Has the company of which you are the head been afflicted with the loss of many ships at sea under your management?
MR. ISMAY: No, sir; I do not think we have had more than our share, perhaps.
SENATOR SMITH: Do you now recall how many you have lost during your management?
MR. ISMAY: The only two that I remember are the Republic and the Naronic. I really was not the manager when the Naronic was lost. The only ship that has been lost since I have been manager is the Republic.
SENATOR SMITH: Where was the Republic lost, do you remember?
MR. ISMAY: She was lost by being run into by an Italian steamer, I do not remember where; I think she was about 36 hours out of New York, but I really do not remember the place.
SENATOR SMITH: Do you remember where the Naronic was lost?
MR. ISMAY: She was never heard of after leaving Liverpool.
SENATOR SMITH: For what port was she destined?
MR. ISMAY: New York.
SENATOR SMITH: And you have no means of knowing as to the latitude and longitude in which that boat was lost?
MR. ISMAY: No, sir; she was practically a new ship when she was lost, and her sister ship is now running between Liverpool and Australia.
SENATOR SMITH: What was her tonnage?
MR. ISMAY: I do not remember, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Do you remember how much she cost?
MR. ISMAY: No; I could not tell you that.
SENATOR SMITH: Do you remember how high she was insured?
MR. ISMAY: I do not think she had been insured at all, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Then you have no data by which you are able to enlighten the committee as to where she was lost, or as to her tonnage or value?
MR. ISMAY: No, sir; but I will very gladly give you her tonnage and her value. So far as the insurance is concerned, I can state that she was not insured. The underwriter of the company took the whole risk concerned.
SENATOR SMITH: Do you know what the average revenue per trip, gross and net, of the Olympic is?
MR. ISMAY: That would entirely depend on the time of the year.
SENATOR SMITH: At this time of the year?
MR. ISMAY: I really could not tell you offhand, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: Can you approximate it?
MR. ISMAY: I am almost afraid to answer the question, because it might be so very misleading.
SENATOR SMITH: I will not press it, Mr. Ismay.
MR. ISMAY: I will give it to you, gladly.
SENATOR SMITH: Perhaps, you can furnish us with that information.
MR. ISMAY: Certainly, I can give you the exact figures.
SENATOR SMITH: Can you, in the same connection, give us your estimated figures upon the earning capacity of the Titanic at this time of the year?
MR. ISMAY: What profit she would have left on the voyage?
SENATOR SMITH: What gross return and what net return per trip you had figured on.
MR. ISMAY: No; I could not give you that. We have the figures of the Olympic, of course, which would be on the same lines as those of the Titanic. The ships were practically sister ships.
SENATOR SMITH: Can you tell me whether the ships or vessels of the lines of which you are managing director are classed in any of the accepted classifications or societies?
MR. ISMAY: Some of the ships, I believe, are classed in Lloyd's. So far as the White Star Line are concerned, they have never classed any of their ships, as the ships have always been built far in excess of any of those requirements. We have always been in the habit of taking out a passenger certificate on all our ships, which is a check on our own people that those ships have been kept absolutely up to the mark.
SENATOR SMITH: In letting contracts for building your ships, and particularly the Titanic, was there any limit of cost placed on the contractors who built the ship?
MR. ISMAY: No, sir. We have never built a ship with Messrs. Harland & Wolff by contract at all. They have carte blanche to build the ship and put everything of the very best into that ship, and after they have spent all the money they can on her they add on their commission to the gross cost of the ship, which we pay them. We have never built a ship by contract.
SENATOR SMITH: The plans that are made are made by your engineers or theirs?
MR. ISMAY: The plans?
SENATOR SMITH: The plans, drawings, and specifications.
MR. ISMAY: Messrs. Harland & Wolff prepare the plans. They are then submitted to us, to the directors of the White Star Line or to the manager of the White Star Line. They are carefully gone through with the representatives of the shipbuilders. They try to make suggestions to improve those plans. They are taken back and thoroughly thrashed out again, and they are submitted, I should be afraid to say how often. You see, when you build a ship you have to start building her probably five or six years before you want her.
SENATOR SMITH: Who of your company directed the Harland & Wolff Co. to build the Titanic?
MR. ISMAY: I did, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: What did you say to them?
MR. ISMAY: It is very difficult for me to say what I said. It would be in a conversation with Lord Pirrie, that we had decided to build the Olympic and the Titanic.
SENATOR SMITH: Were both ships ordered at the same time?
MR. ISMAY: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: What did you say to them? Did you say, "We want the largest and best ship that you can build safely"?
MR. ISMAY: We would naturally try to get the best ship we possibly could. We wanted the best ship crossing the north Atlantic when we built her.
SENATOR SMITH: And when you gave the order that was your instruction?
MR. ISMAY: Yes, sir.
SENATOR SMITH: And you made no limitations as to cost?
MR. ISMAY: Absolutely none.
SENATOR SMITH: You were content that they should build that ship at whatever it cost to build it?
