Usenet 1994 January/usenetsourcesnewsgroupsinfomagicjanuary1994.iso/answers/romance-faq/part1

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From: [e-mail] (Henning Klaskala)
Subject: alt.romance "FAQ" (part 1 of 2)  [posted monthly]
Keywords: romance,love,dating,mating,relationships,kissing,cuddling,gifts,...
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Summary: A collection of articles that give some answers/views/ideas on
     frequently discussed questions/subjects concerning romance/love.
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Archive-name: romance-faq/part1
Last-modified: 1993/12/06
Version: 6

Changes since the last version:
* Chapter 3: added "Helpful Hints to NicePeople(tm)"
* Added new chapter 7: "What do women want?"
* Chapter A: added face massage manual
* Added new chapter D: Flowers and their meaning
* Chapter E: some ASCII graphics in this FAQ now
  (Does anybody want to maintain a larger archive of ASCII graphics, e.g. in
  one's .plan file, accessible via finger?  The last maintainer seems to be
  gone and I don't want to make the FAQ too large by including everything)
* Added new chapter F: Mailing list(s)
  (so far only one - are there other romance related mailing lists?)


@}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`--   Alt.romance "FAQ"   @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-

Contents:                       in part
#0# Introduction                   1
#1# Abbreviations                  1
#2# Is it love or not?             1
#3# Nice guys and general stuff    1
#4# Kissing and hugging            1
#5# Snuggling and sleeping         1
#6# Gifts                          1
#7# What do women want?            1
#8# Dating                         2
#9# Sensitivity training           2
#A# Backrubs and massages          2
#B# Fireplace scenes and the RFA   2
#C# Breaking up                    2
#D# Flowers and their meaning      2
#E# ASCII graphics                 2
#F# Mailing list(s)                2
#G# Literature                     2

Search for the string #?# to find the corresponding chapter!


#0# Introduction:   @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-

Don't expect an appropriate answer to any of your questions in this "FAQ"!
When it comes to romance no question has one simple answer, but many
different answers.  It all depends very much on the persons involved.
Yet you can find many interesting ideas that could inspire your creativity.
Try to adapt them to your individual needs/tastes/styles/characters/cultures
or better try to invent something new!

Contrary to other subjects a FAQ on romance can't be a list of objective
questions and answers that everyone can agree on.
This "FAQ" is largely composed of quotes from different people's postings.
It isn't just a sterile list of questions and answers that doesn't reflect
the authors' personality and passion, but a mixture of various ways of
advice giving.
Always remember that this "FAQ" doesn't contain eternal truths, but just
the opinions of the authors!  Feel encouraged to disagree!  Don't take
everything seriously!

Some things to remember when posting to alt.romance:
* Feel free to ask questions that already are in this "FAQ"!
  There will always be some answers that can NOT be found in a short FAQ
  on the delicate subject of romance...
* If you want to prove how smart you are please post the most useful, most
  empathizing advice instead of the most biting flame!
* If you need to post something that has nothing to do with romance please
  consider setting the "Followup-To:" line to more appropriate newsgroup(s)!
* Advice on posting to Usenet can regularly be found in news.announce.newusers

Thanks to all who contributed to this "FAQ" by posting interesting articles
and making helpful suggestions!

Any comments and suggestions for improvements are welcome!


#1# Abbreviations:   @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}--

AIDS = Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome
BF = BoyFriend
BTW = By The Way
FAQ = Frequently Asked Questions
FYI = For Your Information
GF = GirlFriend
ILY = I Love You
IMHO = In My Humble Opinion
IMNSHO = In My Not So Humble Opinion
IMO = In My Opinion
LDR = Long Distance Relationship
LJBF = Let's Just Be Friends
MOTAS = Member Of The Appropriate Sex
MOTOS = Member Of The Opposite Sex
MOTSS = Member Of The Same Sex
POV = Point Of View
RFA = Romantic Fire Association
RP = Romantic Partner
SO = Significant Other (not Sex Object :-)  Please consider using RP instead!)
STD = Sexually Transmitted Disease
XSO = ex-SO
YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary
:-) = smilie (indicates humorous remark;  some other smilies:  ;-)   :)   8-)


#2# Is it love or not?:   @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`--

From: [e-mail] (Haywire) -------------------------------------------
Subject: mature love vs. infatuation

While cleaning out my room I found a memo from my freshman year about planned
parenthood, social deseases, etc... Inside I found this:

TEN QUESTIONS TO ASK ABOUT YOURSELF AND YOUR RELATIONSHIP
1. What do I want from this relationship?
2. Have I told him/her what is important to me in a relationship?
3. Does he/she tell me what is important to him/her in a relationship?
4. Am I happy with the way things are?
5. What type of changes would make it better?
6. Can we talk about touching?
7. Do I feel good about the touching we do?
8. Am I feeling pressured or am I pressurring?
9. How does the relationship affect other things or people in my life?
10 Who can I talk to when things get tough?

Then it goes into these definitions:

MATURE LOVE
*both are individuals apart from the other
*each accepts the fact that neither is perfect
*the relationship is strong in tough times as well as happy times
*the love gives each person energy to devote to all aspects of life
*the two people are close friends
*each person continues to grow as an independent human being
*there is joy in giving as well as recieving
*there is honesty and trust between the two people
*each feels a responsibility to the others well being

INFATUATION IS NOT LOVE
*the person depends on the relation for self esteem
*the person takes more from the relationship than they give
*each is jealous of the others seperate activities
*the relationship drains the person of energy
*the person is afraid that the other person will lose interest in them
*the person can only think of the other person

What do you think


From: [e-mail] (Kimikimkim) ---------------------------------------
Subject: How do you know when it's love? (Summary of replies to a survey)

[...]
1.  When you see someone you like, how do you attract that person?
*I flirt and smile a lot.  I try to let them see who I am by sharing myself.
*I find out what our mutual interests are and I try to find a way to share
them.
*By conversations and phone calls, make the other person know that you are
alive and interested in him/her.
*Do not put on an act, just be yourself.
*You cannot go out and try "lines" on him/her, these are normally turn offs.
*Do not try and move too fast.  If it is meant to be, it will happen.

2.  And once that person is attracted to you, how do you know you're in love?
*By looking into his eyes and seeing my reflections through the tears of joy
in his eyes.
*By enjoying and appreciating the little things he did for me and getting
goose bumps at the sound of his voice when he called my name.
*I would say that if you are waiting for it to happen, it will take longer or
it will not happen.  Be patient with it.
*When I know that I have seen my lover's soul and I love it.
*Sharing daily things with each other and showing undivided attention to that
person.

3.  When you're in love, how would you express it?
*Making the other person the most important person in your life is the key.
*By being there and being able to count on the other person.  You must be
honest too.
*I do his laundry and make his dinner for him when he is too tired to do them.
*I do the mush stuff:  cards, flowers, weekends away, etc.
*I treat him well.  I treat him like a best friend because he is.

4.  And after expressing your everlasting love, how does your significant
other return it?
*By telling me how he feels deep inside, opening up to me, and telling me
every little thing about his feelings towards things.
*He returns my love by holding my hand when we are walking across the
street.
*Just seeing the glow and smile on the other person's face means that it
must be love!
*Love is a give and take arrangement.  You must give love in order to
receive it.
*He loves me all the time!  He purrs when I wake him up in the morning.
He hugs me throughout the day.
*When he looks at me, I see the love in his eyes.  He treats me as though
I was precious.
Failing all else, one slightly insane guru suggested a sure fire method:
*I would light my hair on fire and place a live salmon in my vest pocket to
attract her.  I know I'm in love when she can enjoy my salmon, but still
respect my mind.  I show her my love by doing interpretive dancing with
fluorescent lightbulbs, followed by splashing multicolored dayglow paint
against my thighs, and then dinner at McDonalds.  And I know she loves me
when there's an absence of gunfire and lawsuits.
[...]


From: [e-mail] (Laakso Dianna) -------------------------------------
Subject: seeing 'the signs' (body language etc.)

[e-mail] (James Peregrino) writes:
[...]
>1) she makes an attempt to break your personal space. i.e gets a little
>closer to you than most people do.

Yes, this is something some of us do.  When standing and talking to
someone I'm attracted to, I move just a little closer. If there's
an empty seat beside him then of course I sit there. If he's done
something kind for me then I touch him lightly on the arm when I
say 'thanks'. Etc.

>2) she conveniently runs into.  Especially if your daily patterns are
>predictable.

Yep. I would try to be where he is.... but not so often that I would
make a pest of myself.

>3) her dressing patterns change.  But balance this with knowing that it
>could be due to a change in season.

If she begins to wear pretty things, like romantic dresses, or skirts
instead of jeans, jewlery when she never did before, perfume, a more
attractive hairstyle, then interpret it as a sign. These are all things
I find myself doing when I'm interested in someone.

>4) Is she nervous around you?  Makes silly mistakes?

Definitely a sign, especially if she's just getting to know you...
however, if the nervousness diminishes, DON'T take it as a sign
that she's losing interest! Personally the more I like him and
the more I get to know him, the less nervous I am around him.

>5) When you are having a conversation with her and it is going well (or
>very interesting) does she appear inordinately happy about that?

How do you know women so well? ;) You'll see it in her eyes...if she
thinks things are going well and that you're interested in her too, then
it will show. Just take a good look into her eyes. You can't miss it.

>6) Has she made any attempt to feel you out? A personal question dropped
>in the middle of a conversation.  Look for questions such as "Where are
>you from?"  "What town do you live in?".  And especially any information
>that could be used to determine if you are single or attached.

'What do you like to do in your free time?' 'How do you like this or that
about your job?' 'Tell me about your family' I've been in a situation
before when I was almost positive that he was interested in me, but
I got the feeling that he was waiting for me to ask about his personal
life, because it had something to do with his hesitation in starting a
relationship with me. I didn't ask though...most women wouldn't unless
they are very assertive (wish I were). Don't take it as a sign of
non-interest if she doesn't take hints like that.

>7) Body language:  Either A) Looks you right in the eye. B) Avoids your
>glance.  Contradictory?  Sure, but it is up to you to test this.  Does
>she look everyone else right in the eye?  You job is to see if you can
>find a consistent pattern of things that she does differently around
>you.

I look him straight in the eye, and hold his eyes a moment longer
than I would in ordinary conversation with just anyone.

James, you're a pretty observant guy. I wish they were all!

- Dianna


#3# Nice guys and general stuff:   @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`--

From: [e-mail] (Paul J. Wilczynski) -------------------------------
Subject: Nice guys / meeting women

I've been reading a lot of postings from guys who are having problems
finding a relationship.  Many of them (but not all) speaking of their
being a 'nice guy' and not wanting to be aggressive.

This is coming from someone who's 43.  I've wanted to comment on these
postings for a while, and finally decided to do it.

When I was a teen thru my mid-20s, I characterized myself as a 'nice guy'.
Same story I hear here on a regular basis ... lots of women would tell me
what a great catch I'd be for someone else.  Sounds nice the first time
you hear it.  Maybe the second, and possibly the third.  After that, it
gets old really fast.

What I finally realized, after a *long* time, was that I was waiting for
"something" to happen, and it didn't.  I *certainly* didn't want to offend
a women by suggesting we be something more than friends, did I?  I *certainly*
didn't want to risk getting my face slapped by suggesting (in any manner)
that the bedroom might be an appropriate place to spend the rest of the
evening, did I?

Let me tell you, in no particular order, what I've learned about this whole
thing called "relationships between men and women".  Take it for what it's
worth ... and remember it's often worth what you pay for it.  Some of these
points are interrelated ...

1.  With rare exceptions, women are not offended if you make a pass at them,
as long as it's done with some amount of taste.  In fact, after a fairly
short period of time (mileage may vary), women draw an important conclusion
if you *don't* make a pass.  And that conclusion is that you're not terribly
interested in being more than a friend.  Let me explain that I consider 'make
a pass' to be a very broad term ... it can be something as non-threatening as
putting you hand on her arm briefly and telling her that you think she looks
especially nice tonight.

2.  If you're interested in a women as possibly more than a friend, you *have*
to tell her that - somehow - fairly soon.  Probably by the end of the first
date.  Again, it doesn't have to be anything Outrageously Significant, but
it's got to be *something*.  (see last sentence above).  It doesn't have to
be words.  It at least has to be some sort of signal.

3.  On the subject of compliments:
    a.  Women enjoy receiving them.
    b.  But not *all* the time - they get boring and embarrassing.
    c.  And they *know* when you're lying.
    d.  You're much better off complimenting a woman on something she has
        some control over.  Her hair style.  A piece of jewelry.  Her
        presentation in a class.  Not particularly her eyes, her skin color,
        the size of her breasts.  *Especially* not the size of her breasts.

4.  *Practice* dealing with women, especially if you're shy.  They usually
    don't bite (some do, actually, but that's another topic and doesn't come
    until somewhat later in the relationship ...)  How?  Easy:
    a.  Say hi to at least 3 women a day you've never spoken to before, or
        maybe even never seen before.  Say it when you pass them in the hall.
        When you sit down next to them in class.  When you buy something from
        them in a store.  Why?
        1)  Because you'll probably at the very least get a suprised smile
            which will make you feel *lots* better about yourself
        2)  Because they might say something back to you, and then you're
            talking
        Don't worry about saying anything else.  Just "hi".  If you want to
        be brave, and it's the right situation (not passing in the hall, for
        example), you could try "I don't think we've met ... my name is
        <insert first name here>."  But "hi" is fine the first time.
    b.  Don't wait until you see the woman of your imagined dreams before
        you strike up a conversation.  Try to talk to any woman about anything
        without making a pest of yourself.  The worst that can happen is that
        she'll indicate she's not interested in talking.  Think of that
        reaction as her loss.
    c.  What can you talk about?  Literally, anything.  "Whew, it's cold
        outside!".  "Excuse me, what time have you got?" (possibly followed by
        "that's a nice watch!", but only if you believe it (see 3c above)).
    d.  Who do you talk to?  Anyone!  It's practice, remember?

5.  On the subject of being "aggressive" (which "nice guys", of course, don't
    like to be) ...
    a.  Don't think of it as "aggressive".  Think of it as "self-confident"
        but not really cocky.
    b.  This quality (and I use that word in a positive sense) is one which
        reflects your feeling (you have this feeling, don't you?) that you're
        a man worth knowing.  Forget about "nice guy".  Unfortunately, "nice
        guy" equates to wimp/dweeb in too many people's minds.  Sure you're
        nice - most people are.  So what?
    c.  "Aggressive" in my definition isn't wolf whistles or cat calls.  It's
        not leering.  It's not pawing a woman's body.  It's taking some
        initiative and not waiting for madam perfection to drop into your
        lap (which you as a "nice guy" deserve by definition, of course).
        It's showing some honest interest in something about a woman.

I could go on, but that's probably it for a start.

Comments?  I'd be interested in comments from women as much as men.

Paul


From: [e-mail] (Paul J. Wilczynski) -------------------------------
Subject: More on Men and Women

Because of a flood of positive mail (well, a small flood) in response to my
recent posting about relationships between men and women, I thought I'd
pass along a few more random observations.  Remember:  advice is worth what
you pay for it, and this is based on my experience.  Your mileage may vary.

Since I actually got more responses from women (saying that many of the points
applied equally to women, too), I'm going to divide this up into sections.

A.  Both sexes ...

1.  Remember that members of the opposite sex are people, just like you.
Women aren't orifaces, guys.  Guys have feelings too, women.

2.  One of the things that you'll come to find most attractive about a person
of a the opposite sex in terms of a relationship is that the person is
attracted to you.  I have to give credit to a discussion in some newsgroup to
this idea, but it really hit me when I read it.  Think about it:  if a person
doesn't *want* to have a relationship with you, that's really not an
attractive quality about the person, is it?  Ever take a course in marketing?
A market is defined in part by those people who want what you're selling.  If
a person doesn't want what you're selling, the person isn't in your market!
Not everyone is going to want what you've got, great as it might be.

3.  Smile.  Not grin, but smile.

4.  *Try* to see beyond what a person of the opposite sex looks like on the
outside.  Of course, if you look at a person and have to suppress a gag
reflex, that's probably not the one you want to spend a lifetime with, as nice
a personality as (s)he may have.

Remember all those pithy little sayings like "beauty is only skin deep"?  Well,
try to remember them.  Some of the most beautiful women I have ever known
you wouldn't notice walking down the street.  But when they smiled that
special smile at me and only me ... whew.  If their Weight isn't quite
Proportional to their Height (WPTH), so what?

Of course, on the other side of the fence, the campus beauty queen is only
human, too, beneath all that lucious, sexy, curvy ... (oh, stop it, Paul!!!!)

5.  Try as hard as you can not to get involved with people who are married,
no matter what they say about the state of their marriage, unless they're
separated and have filed papers for divorce.

6.  Think about what you say before you say it, from the point of view
of hearing someone else say it to you.

My worst experience in this area:  the first time I ever bedded a woman was
when I was about 23.  (Late bloomer, obviously).  She was about 10 years older
than me and previously married.  Things were going well, but I was nervous.
Right at Beginning Moment, she looked up at me and said "Is this your first
time in saddle?"  The situation turned out fine, fortunately (she took the
role of Teacher), but the phrasing of the question could have used some work.

B.  For men ...

1.  I hate to say this is this section, but I think it may apply somewhat more
to men then women.  Keep yourself clean, ok?  You may have a great mind and
a stunning personality, but if your potential sex partner has to hang
odor eaters around you, it's making the situation just that much more
difficult.

2.  Forget about the idea of getting into bed with a woman with the intention
of both of you keeping your clothes on all night, unless that's the way you
want the relationship to be for the rest of all time, or unless you happen
to be into the sex game called "I'm a priest, you're a nun".  If it's late
at night and you're a long way from home (or drunk) and she offers with the
caveat that no Private Parts will be exposed, politely decline the offer.
Tell her that she's much too attractive for you to be able to do that without
being overwhelmed by passion (assuming you believe it, of course), then
sleep on the floor or the couch.

3.  Often (not always, but very often) when a woman tells you about a problem
she's having, she's not looking to you for the solution.  What?  That doesn't
make sense?  See intro to section C.  What she's often looking for is comfort
and reassurance and knowing that you're there.

That's why, when you analyze the situation and present her the options as you
seem them in decreasing order of probable success, she looks at you like
you're from Mars and/or bursts into tears and/or storms off saying "you
haven't heard a word I said!".

Note that this doesn't really apply to a women who comes to you the day before
a final saying she doesn't know the material.  She's looking for your notes or
a course summary she can stick in her shoe for consultation, not your
comforting words that she'll ace the test in spite of having no concept of
what the course was about.

I understand, the nuances of this are rough.  Stick with it.

C.  For women ...

[This section's a little tough for me because, frankly, I don't really
understand women.  No man will *ever* absolutely understand women, hundreds
of books oriented towards Understanding Women to the contrary.  Oh, I
understand them *more* as time goes on, but it would take more than one or
two average male lifetimes (AMLs, as we call them) to Understand them.]

1.  Whoever invented the game of "play hard to get"?  Sheesh.  Lots of guys
have enough lack of self-confidence without playing *this* game.  I mean,
you don't have to come out and say you want to bear his children, but try
to be honest.

2.  Men's emotional swings can be just as wide as yours, PMS notwithstanding.
Your smile can make a guy's day (or week), and your lack of attention can
bring him to the depths of despair.

3.  Rejection is *very* hard for a lot of guys to take, so if you're going to
be doing any rejecting, give some thought to how you phrase it.  Personally,
the rejection phrase I've found easiest to take is "I'm already involved with
someone".  That wasn't a rejection of anything about *me*.

That's it for now,
Paul


From: [e-mail] (Ken Shirriff) -----------------------------
Subject: Nice Guys vs. Jerks (summary of a discussion)

Q: Why do women go out with jerks instead of "nice guys"?
This is one of the age-old Usenet questions that bores nearly anyone who has
been on the net more than six months.

There are several different meanings of "nice":
Being a friendly, decent human being: generally a good thing.
Being inoffensive, shy, boring, lacking self-confidence: almost always bad.
    People labeled "nice guy" usually fall into the last category; people
    can be nice without it being the defining facet of their personality.

There are several different meanings of "jerk":
Being an actual jerk: not attractive to most women.
Being self-confident, assertive, outgoing: generally a good thing, but the
    nice guy may consider him a jerk.

The nice guy vs. jerk debate thrives on this ambiguity, as well as the false
division of people into nice guys or jerks.  Women generally prefer
self-confident guys over shy, boring ones, but this does not mean they prefer
"jerks" over "nice guys".

Men labelled "nice guy" may be submissive about their emotional needs.
They would generally rather avoid an argument rather than let one develop.
They are not loud or aggressive, and generally despise men who are, usually
on the grounds that such men are insensitive and heedless of hurt they do
to others.  "Nice guys" face several impediments to relationships: they lose
out in competition to assertive men and they appear to lack self-confidence.
(Andrew Bettison)

The canonical scenario is the woman always tells the nice guy about what a jerk
her boyfriends are, but never goes out with nice guy.  The nice guy remains
single and frustrated (also known as LJBF: "let's just be friends").
a) The woman probably doesn't need to discuss her boyfriend when everything is
fine, so the nice guy may form a unjustly negative image of the boyfriend.
b) A barrier to a relationship with the nice guy is "don't sleep with friends".
c) The interesting question in this scenario is why does the nice guy stick
around with this woman who is draining his emotional support when he could
find someone else.  Note the symmetry that he is attracted to this "jerk" woman
instead of finding a "nice woman".

Being fun and interesting is the quality that gets you friends.
Being nice is the quality that helps you keep the friends.
Being sexy, flirtatious, and aggressive at the right moment gets you in bed
with the woman you want.    (strake)

It is not true that women, in general, prefer assholes.
 Women, in general, prefer guys with self-confidence.
Unfortunately, assholes are generally pretty self-confident. (slf)

"Being *nice* is not enough."  Okay, fine, you're *nice*.
But you also need to be *interesting*.    (Pooh)

Maybe the cause-and-effect are backwards; guys who attract lots of women are
jerks because they don't have to be nice.

Some women say "you're too nice to go out with" as a "polite" way of saying
"I don't want to go out with you".

Clearly some women do go out with jerks (e.g. codependency, women who
want extra excitement, women who want to "rescue" the jerk).
However, lots of women do go out with nice guys; after all, most nice guys
end up in relationships, married, etc.  Besides, why would you _want_ to go
out with a woman who is attracted to jerks.


From: [e-mail] (David Abbott) -------------------------------
Subject: Re: Helpful Hints to NicePeople(tm)

Karen Ronan <[e-mail]> writes...
>This won't be very thorough, but here are some hints to "nice people" on
>how to stop others from taking advantage:
>
>- Give serious thought to how you feel when you have been taken advantage
>of: e.g. hurt, betrayed, disappointed, scared, embarrassed, angry.  Think
>about exactly what behavior of your friend triggered exactly which
>reaction in you.
>
>- Think about whether this reaction is entirely justified, partly
>justified, possibly an overreaction, or what.  Think about whether the
>reaction is the same one you've been feeling since childhood in similar
>situations.  Think about whether you want to have this reaction for the
>rest of your life, or whether you are ready to change the reaction.
>(Sometimes you will still want to have that reaction.)
>
>- Think about whether you maintain your emotional boundaries or whether
>you allow others to invade your emotional boundaries.  If you let them
>invade your boundaries, what are you willing to do to prevent this in the
>future?  Are you willing to say "No"?  Are you willing to say, "I'm
>angry"?  Are you willing to say, "I'm finding it hard to tolerate what
>you did, and I'm very hurt"?  Even if it means the other person will get
>defensive and angry with you?  Are you willing to stand up for yourself
>because your feelings are important ?
>
>- Think specifically about what you /can/ tolerate as opposed to what you
>/actually/ tolerate.  Give yourself permission to stop tolerating what is
>intolerable.
>
>- Permit yourself to refuse people access to you if they're incapable of
>treating you respectfully.
>
>- Respect yourself and respect others.  Believe that others are doing the
>best that they can, even if they are operating at a very low level.
>People don't have the perception that you do.  People don't know what you
>are feeling or thinking and are unconscious of hurting you.
>
>- Think of communicating your feelings as giving information to someone,
>not as imposing demands on them.
>
>Other hints welcome.
>
>Karen

- Keep a diary of everything hurtful or enjoyable, and read each entry
a week later. You soon realise if you are an oversensitive bastard.

David.  [...]


#4# Kissing and hugging:   @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-

From: [e-mail] (Nicholas Jodar) -----------------------------------

>Alright guys...Here's the situation.  I am not desperate, just looking for
>a variety of answers to work with on this one.  Say you take a girl out
>and you get back to her apartment and it's time to say goodnight.  What
>should you do to get the kiss started and also, under what circumstances
>would you throw a girl a nice kiss.  Just looking for some ways I haven't
>used and/or considered.  Thanks...

Well, there are many ways to do it, most dependent on your style.
You could avoid kissing altogether:  a small momento to remember
the occasion with, a nice bow with a flourish, a good handshake,
a wave goodbye, a gentle caress of her cheek.  You could make it
a neutral kiss:  throw her a kiss, kiss her hand, kiss her cheek,
kiss your finger and touch it to her lips.  And of course,
there's the KISS kiss... :-)

Tell her (if you haven't already) how much you enjoyed the
evening, and ask if she'd like to go out again.  DO NOT tell her
you're going to call her just to have something to say.  Many men
do this and it drives women nuts because the men never do call.
If you can, tentatively schedule your next date.  If you can't do
that, at least let her know you'd like to go out again.

One good way to end things is by giving her a big hug.  I don't
know of too many people that refuse a nice hug.  If you hugging
isn't up to par, practice a bit, first.  You'll find lots of
people willing to help you practice. :-)  A good hug is firmly
snug, but not crushing, requires a relaxed holding of the other
person, (like you would hold them if you were trying to comfort
them), and often includes some small movement, like rocking from
side to side.  Hugs last anywhere from one second to one minute,
depending on how the people feel.

After you give her a hug, you can look her in the face while
remaining embraced.  Stare into her eyes for a moment as you
smile.  If she pulls back, let her go, but keep smiling.  If she
doesn't, then just hold her.  If she looks down at your mouth, or
closes her eyes, this means she's expecting a kiss.  Try being as
delicate as possible...  That's usually a good way to kiss for
the first time.  The memory of it will be like a butterfly, light
and beautiful....

It's all fairly straightforward...  Anybody else have any nifty
ideas?

-Nick


From: [e-mail] -------------------------------------------

[...]
Kissing.. what a great topic and one of my favorite pastimes.. :)
I can relate to a certain extent with your friend.  I consider
kissing to be an artform.  The more creative the kissing, the
more artistic and pleasurable to the palette. (pun intended)
Men who french kiss during the entire exchange turn me off
completely.

Slow sensual and *mutual* touching, tasting, nibbling, licking,
and variations thereof, combine to make the best kissing IMHO.
The way a man kisses, tells me a great deal about how good of
a lover he would be.  Which bring me to another point.. men
that just clamp their lips on yours and never move their lips
or change the angle of the kiss, lose out on the whole rhythm
and motion of a kiss.  It should be something dynamic and
explorative, but not explorative in the way that some jam
their tongues in your mouth as though they were searching
for fillings or something! :)


From: [e-mail] (Beth Weiss) --------------------------------------
Subject: First kiss: Are glasses a problem?

[...]
If she resists, is scared, or feels guilty, she's not ready to be
kissed.  If your gentle attempt to kiss her doesn't meet with shy
acceptance, then she's not ready--and you should stop.  If that
happens, tell her you understand, and ask if you can try again in a
few days or a few weeks.

>    But, what embarrassing it is, if our glasses stop my way just on
>    the critical moment....

From experience, glasses don't get in the way very much at all.  If
only one party is wearing glasses, it's hardly ever a problem.  If
they both are, kissing can still be done quite easily.

However, if you're worried about it, you might try this (and it will
give her a chance to decide if she's just a little timid or if she
wants you to stop):
   Reach over and gently take off her glasses, saying softly, "I'd
      like to kiss you"
   (optional: take off your glasses)
   Then kiss her gently

>    ps. Note that the important keyword : First Time.

IMHE, first kisses don't tend to be as passionate as those shown in
the movies--you can do it with glasses on.  If they get in the way,
one or both of you will pull back long enough to take them off.


From: [e-mail] (Anthony Russell Rosania) --------------------------

When I first kissed my first girlfriend, our glasses bumped and clicked,
we both laughed took them off, and we kissed, not picture perfect
romance, but it was a good tension breaker, we we're both alot more
relaxed that way.


#5# Snuggling and sleeping:   @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}--

Subject: How to hold your SO all night long
From: [e-mail] ----------------------------------------------------

[...]
I personally have always preferred lying on my back with my arms around her,
her head on my chest, legs intertwined. Since the last two gf's slept on their
sides/chests, they used my chest as a pillow. I gotta say, to whoever says
that sleeping with you arms around your SO is torture, I never found that to
be the case. I always got my best sleep when I was with someone else (and
that ISN'T because of being worn out...just the comfort factor). The only probl
em I ever ran into was that my last girlfriend was a late riser, And I tend to
be a bit of an early bird, especially when I get a deep sleep...and, when she
was laying on top/side, it was REAL tough to move at all without waking her...

                                          Some Simple Observations
                                          From My Point Of View

                                          Redneck!


From: [e-mail] (Foxy Lady) ----------------------------------

[...]
There's nothing I love more than to fall asleep in my lover's arms,
waking up in the morning, still cuddling, is something I dream about.
But, alas! My SO can't sleep when I'm in the same bed as him - even
if I'm not in contact with him!

I spend the whole night restraining myself from touching him, and he
sleeps badly just because I'm there.

When I'm in his arms I feel so secure. I become so relaxed, I sleep
really well. I just wish he could relax with me too.


Valerie.


From: Pamela Kay <[e-mail]> ----------------------------

My spouse and I have reached a really great compromise (I think, weve
been together for 4 years...seems like yesterday..with 3 kids and one
on the way....it feels like a 100 years sometimes :)

We lay in the spoon position for a while and when he starts to drift off
(which is very quickly when he horizontal :), I roll over and we hold
hands.  There are times when I wake up in the middle of the night and
we are still holding hands.  Many nights we also intertwine our feet.
Close enough to touch, far enough to sleep comfortably.

Mrs. B


From: [e-mail] (QUEEN ZENOBIA!) ------------------------------

[...]       yes i like to have my fiance sleep with his head on my chest
and vice versa also. I do not really find it uncomfortable to sleep next
to my fiance in this manner. I think perhaps i can find it more comfortable
because i have some extra padding who know :) [not fat just extra padding :)]
[...]

-kimberli k roan


From: [e-mail] (Kirk Franklin) -----------------------------------

I like sleeping side by side, like spoons, or lying on my back and having
the other person's head on my chest.

>* separate beds in separate rooms (probably the best if one or both are
>  snoring too loud, or on those nasty days when you hate each other)

This is why God invented couches.  It's also very healthy to recognize that
there will be times someone will be sleeping there.

I also believe in each person using their own sheets, to eliminate the
problem of hogging the sheets.  It's no fun to get in trouble for something
you did while you were asleep...or while they're asleep.  A former
girlfriend once had a dream about me doing something she didn't like, and I
was in trouble all the next day.

No worries,

Scooter Corleone


From: [e-mail] (Todd W. Thompson) ---------------------------

[e-mail] (Teresa Kline) writes:
[...]
>I have never been more uncomfortable than when someone is trying to hold me
>while I sleep.  I can't turn over, I've got someone either breathing or
>snoring in my ear, and it's just darned unpleasant.  Sorry, guys.  :)
>
>Teresa

YAY! Someone, and someone of the opposite sex, who agrees with me! I'm one
of those people who HAS to roll around a lot and kick covers and flip
pillows over (it's colder on the other side, you see) and so on. And it used
to annoy the heck out of my girlfriend. And now I find someone else who's
like me in this respect! ALRIGHT!

Now all I have to do is find one who'll date me.. :)

Todd


From: [e-mail] (Michael Haardt) --------------

[...]
If you can't find sleep, try throwing pillows in your faces.
You soon will get exhausted enough... :-)

It is one of the most wonderful things to look at your SO's face, when
she awakes and there is nothing comparable to spend hours in the bed,
just hugging and kissing.

Michael


From: <[e-mail]> --------------------------------------------------

As an answer to the "too hot" remark...less covers always seemed (Yes, past
tense..) to do the trick for me 'n mine. I have found that EVERY female
I have slept with (I am not saying had sex with...that limits the generality
quite a bit...and I am not saying that this is true for all women...) have
slept better with me holding them than they did without me holding them. But
my roommate and his girlfriend DON'T "cuddle up" when they go to sleep...
neither one "feels comfortable" that way. So they are pretty much back to
back, with hands held between them. I guess you just have to find a way
that both people can enjoy, and also sleep comfortably...try different ways,
and then go to what "feels best"....
[...]


#6# Gifts:   @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-

From:  [e-mail] (WONG  Peter Chih Chen) --------------------
Subject: Teddy Bears

A way to deliver your gift: I strapped the first one I gave her
into the passenger seat of my car, and I told her I was bringing
a friend to meet her but to be cautious because he's very shy
and a lot younger. So she approached the car very timidly when I
picked her up and she got confused when she couldn't see anyone
as we approached the car. When I opened the door and introduced
her, her reaction was wonderful.

--Peter


From: [e-mail] (Marcia Bednarcyk) ----------------------------------------

Ah, holiday and birthday gifts. They're fraught with such meaning, which makes
getting the "perfect" thing at the right time so "important". I use quotes
deliberately, because we tend to blow these things up way out of proportion.

Here are my list of suggestions for gift giving. Take them as you will, they
seem to work ok for me. BTW, I'm assuming at this point you've decided that
you would like to give your SO a gift for whatever reason :-).

1. Reduce the importance of the occasion, and give up the quest for the
   "perfect" gift. This is the hardest part, I know, because you want the
   person to be delighted with the gift. Remind yourself that if s/he isn't
   delighted, it's not the end of the world. (If it is, you have more problems
   than a gift will solve.) Remember: panic makes it harder to choose a
   gift :-).

2. Start thinking about gifts early. This gives you time to think about what
   you want to get, your price range, and if you happen to see the "perfect"
   thing you can get it when you see it.

3. Here's the real work: *observe* your SO. What does s/he like that s/he
   doesn't have? What would make his/her life easier? If you're at a friend's
   house, does s/he spend the whole time playing with/admiring/gushing over
   something? Is there something that consistently catches his/her eye when
   you're shopping together? Does s/he keep mentioning a certain thing?

   This is the real secret, since it allows you to find out what s/he really
   likes. And it is hard, since it requires you to listen, observe, and
   remember without taking notes. I got into this habit early, since I have
   a few people I like to give things to who are impossible to buy for. But I
   get ideas all year long by watching and listening, and generally I do
   pretty well.

   For example, 2 years ago I saw the books of the Monty Python scripts and
   got them for a dyed in the wool Monty Python friend who I knew didn't know
   they were out. He loved them :-). And last year I was given a watch that
   I have loved for ages but never got around to getting for myself for
   various reasons.

4. Help out your SO. If they've ever lamented that you're difficult to get
   things for, drop a few hints. Mention you like something, or something
   else would be really useful. Miss Manners may frown, but in the past I
   have been so grateful for any help.

5. If you're really, really stuck, ask your SO what s/he would like. Most
   common answer is "You don't have to get me anything", which, of course,
   you don't listen to at all. Better to ask "What have been your favorite
   presents" or "What do you think of <something>?" or anything to get the
   conversational ball rolling. Hopefully you can pick up the clues there.

6. If all else fails, there's always a romantic dinner/picnic, flowers, or
   candy. Assuming your SO likes those kinds of things ;-).

What it all comes down to really is knowing your SO, what s/he likes, and
tailoring the gift within your time and budget constraints to those likes.


From: [e-mail] (Meredith Howard) -----------------------------
Subject: Romantic Care Package

> >Hello all!
> >    I'm a college sophmore and my boyfriend and I go to separate
> >schools.  ONe of the things we do to keep the romance going is to send
> >each other romantic care packages every now and then.  The thing is,
> >I am starting to run out of ideas.  In the past we have sent each other
> >romantic music mixes, candy, stuffed animals, red ribbons for tying
> >letters togehter, flowers, even pizza on one occasion.  ANd lots of
> >cards.  If anyone has more ideas for relatively inexpensive but romantic
> >things I could send my sweety, I would very much appreciate it.  I have
> >great faith in the ability of this group's readers to come up with some
> >wonderful suggestions.  :)
> >            Thanks!  Meredith
> >

    Well, I got some awesome responses alright. I think it's only
fair that I post them for everyone to share.  I think I've got everything
everyone mailed to me, but if I forgot one please post the addition- they
were all neat.
1. Have a friend take lots of pictures of you doing fun things while you and
your SO are apart. Then, find some pictures of your SO and insert him/her
into all the ones of you having fun.
2. Make a tape of yourself talking, singing, or telling a favorite bedtime
story.  By the way, does anyone have any suggestions for good bedtime
stories? :)
3. Get access to a cool graphics program and a scanner, and make an
official certificate saying "World's Best Boyfriend/Girlfriend", with
your SO's pictureon it.
4. Make something childishly creative, using Elmer's glue and construction
paper.
5. Send a lock of your hair, esp. if it's in a plastic envelope that they
can carry in their wallet.
6. Send a lipstick imprint of your lips, lamenated, that they could keep with
them.
7. Send the most romantic candy- hershey's kisses, and it's new complement,
hershey's hugs.
8. Take pictures of you doing really ordinary things that will make your SO
think of all the little things that are so nice about being together.  Even
stuff like brushing your teeth is good.
9.  Make a little book complete with illustrations of what you have been doing
over the past week.

    I think these were all great because they are all very personal,
and most are things that involve time and energy, but not necessarily a lot of
money.  They are also the kind of things that you would want to keep and
remember for a long time.  Thanks to everyone who contributed.
---
Meredith


#7# What do women want?   @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`--

From: Karen Ronan <[e-mail]> ---------------------------------
Subject: Re: Women are all the same...

>Why do women have time for everything and everyone else but me?

Are you interesting to talk to?  Are you clean, well-groomed?  Do you
have a sense of humor?  Do you listen to people?  Do you project some
self-confidence?  Do you have ideas for places to go with a woman?  Do
you have any flair for conversation?  Do you have decent social skills?
Are you fairly intelligent, well read, passionate about something?  Do
you show any emotions?

Just a few things that I look for in potential mates.

Good luck,
Karen


From: [e-mail] (Fawn Fitter) -----------------------------------------
Subject: Re: What do you want to know about a potential SO?

[e-mail] (Michael M Cohen) writes:

>A question for all you romantics: When you are talking with
>a potential SO, what are the questions you want answered
>before deciding that you want to enter a relationship?

Before I get involved with him, or before we take the step that leads from
casual dating to serious one-on-one exploration of whether we could have a
future together?

If the former, the list is pretty short:
- is he single?
- does he smoke, use drugs, or drink to excess?
- is he HIV-negative?
- does he have children from a previous relationship?
- is he politically progressive?
- is he attractive -- not handsome, necessarily, but not butt-ugly (a technical
  term, mind you!) either?
- does he treat women with the same respect he gives to men?
- how's his sense of humor?

If the latter, tack on these things, too:
- do we have any recreational interests in common?
- is he good in bed?
- is he curious about and interested in my work?
- do we aspire to the same kind of lifestyle?
- is he a "city person," or does he prefer the suburban or rural life?
- how does he feel about his family?
- how does he feel about my family?
- is he interested in and open to personal change?
- what are his spiritual/religious beliefs, and do they conflict with mine?
- can he fight fair, or does he have a temper?
- are we friends as well as lovers?
- is he responsible?
- how good is he at expressing his feelings?

and so on, and so on. I always wonder how I managed to survive in the years
before I started choosing my relationships with as much attention as I give
to choosing a new car...


From: [e-mail] (Michael Gordon Weaver) -------------------------------
Subject: Re: What do women find attractive in men?

>Subject line says it all. I'm perpetually perplexed about this. Sorry if it's
>FAQ.

As a man, I cannot speak for women. But I would like to comment.
I think that a better question is 'what can I do to be more attractive
to women'. (If you really want to be able to predict who will be considered
more attractive by some group of women, then you can stop reading now).

If you want to be more attractive to women, I think the first thing you
have to realize is that you only make small changes in yourself. You
can't make yourself taller, shorter or change your basic personality.
Don't waste time worrying about things you can't change.

Another important point is that people pay more attention to
attitude and personality than to appearance. You should try to
be well groomed and keep in shape, of course. But if you are going
to make a good impression, you are going to have to do it by projecting
your personality, not by looking good.

You want women to be interested in you, not impressed. You might get
some attention by doing something impressive, but usually this
attention is short-lived.  The most effective way to get someone
interested in you is to show an interest in them. If you adopt an
attitude that is accepting and open, and show that you are interested
in the other person (by asking questions, and paying attention to her
answers), you will seem very interesting.  Avoid speaking negatively.
When someone hears you say negative things, they unconsciously fear
that you will speak of them negatively. Try to get her to speak about
herself. People have a great need to express themselves, and everyone
needs someone to listen to them.

Paying attention to someone and being a good listener will help make
the other person interested in you, but if that is all you
do, you will be taken for granted. To keep this from happening, you
need to demonstrate some independence. Show that you have a life of
your own. While you should keep the focus on her, when she talks about
something in her life, you can briefly mention something in your life
that is similar. If you do a variety of things in your life, it should
be easy to appear independent. On the other hand, if you act like you
are never too busy to drop everything to see her, and that as far as
you are concerned there are no other women in the world, you will
be seen as dependent. Dependency is unattractive.

Peace,
Michael.


From: [e-mail] (Lynn Bruce Dobbs) -----------------------------------
Subject: Re: What do women find attractive in men?

[...]
My female best buddy told me that she didn't like to answer this
question because her view of attractiveness varied with every man
she knows.

She and I agree that attractiveness is not a receipe to follow.
Besides the basics of hygene and curtesy (and not always those)
little can be said that translates to "ultimate truth" for any
given woman about any given man.  I maintain that the same holds
true for men.

Lynn 'a guess based on personal experience and a very close
     friend who hasn't lied to be yet :-)'


@}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`--   End of part 1   @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-- @}-,-`-

---
Henning Klaskala
[e-mail]