Virtual Reality Zone/VRZONE.ISO/mac/TEXT/MISC/simu_vr.txt

Text File | 1994-10-16 | 25KB | 464 lines

This is a transcript of the October 27, 1993, Real-Time Conference with David
Whatley of Simutronics, on the Multimedia, Desktop Video, and Virtual Reality
RoundTable on GEnie!


<[jPeg] P.HERRINGTON> Okay, everybody, let's get this show on the Digital
Highway...
<[jPeg] P.HERRINGTON> I'd like to introduce a good friend of mine and someone
I've enjoyed working with for a while now...
<[jPeg] P.HERRINGTON> David Whatley, who is CEO and founder of Simutronics...
<[jPeg] P.HERRINGTON> As you undoubtedly know, Simutronics has some great
multi-player games here on GEnie, but they have other exciting things in the
works which we'll be talking about tonight. ..

<[jPeg] P.HERRINGTON> David, I'll turn the floor over to you now for an
opening comment. :)

<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Howdy folks...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Let me describe basicly what we're attempting to do
here...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> It can probably best be put by saying we're trying to
take VR out of the lab and put it in the home.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> To that end we've been doing a couple things...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> First, we've been doing Multiplayer games for about
seven years now.  This gives a substantial amount of experience in building
worlds...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> and now, in cooperation with a hardware research firm
called RPI, we are interfacing with classic Virtual Reality hardware.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Namely VR Visors, consumer quality.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> We demonstrated a prototype at this years GENCON 93'.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> There we demonstrated a version of CyberStrike running
with our prototype VR Visors.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> (I wish this were a live converence so I could let you
all try them on...but...)

<[jPeg] P.HERRINGTON> So do we. :)

<[David] SIMUTRONICS> In lieu of that, I'll let you all just ask whatever you
want about these things and what we are doing. (smile)

<[Denny] DENNYA> We'll try to enjoy them virtually, David. :)

<[Hoagy] H.DELAPLANT1> OK, well, well, approximitly how much are these things
gonna cost?  (I KNOW everyone's wonderin that!)

<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Good question...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> I'll try and answer that by giving you an idea of the
issues involved...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> First, the reason these things have been so slow
getting to market so far is two-fold...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> 1) It is difficult to make a good pair of VR visors
with full stereoscopic view and head-tracking that do not cost a lot of money
to build.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> 2) Since there is no software (read: games) that use VR
visors, who would buy one?
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> This last problem is similar to a lot of game extras
like light-guns.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> To produce them cheaply you have to prove a large
market (say million units).
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> The biggest expense, by the way, are the color LCD
plates.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> These suckers are like the ones on laptop computers,
but a whole lot smaller...at the same or better resolution (and thus a whole
lot more expensive to produce).
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> And you need two of them!
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> As you may know, one of the big expenses for laptop
computers are the LCD screens.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> I should point out that one main reason they are so
expensive is because of the tarrifs our goverment has imposed on the
importing of these devices.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> So there is a limit to how cheap we can get them no
matter what.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Okay, so to answer your question...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Our goal is to have a device that sells for under $500
intially.  This is pretty competitive with other neato gizmos with few
applications on introduction...like say CD-ROM drives early on.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> It will be a two part sell probably...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> The unit scales up with expansion options...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Let me describe it a little...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> The VR Visor we have now weighs just 3oz.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Its entirely UNLIKE what you may have seen on TV, books
or in a Virtuality machine.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> It looks, litteraly, like sunglases.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> The production unit of these is smaller, under 2oz and
has the center of gravity right over the temple and are remarkably more
comfortable.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Each eye has it's own color LCD plate.  We have units
with resolutions between 320x200 to 1024x768.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> You get about a 40 degree field of view with these,
which is not great, but after using them your mind adjusts to the limited
window.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> The field of view is basicly limited by other factors,
such as the fact that no wide-screen output formats exist that would be at
all standard.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Resolution on color LCDs is a fickle thing...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> It can take more than one pixel to make a single color,
so the 320x200 versions don't give you the greatest view.  Most simulator
games, like Falcon or F15 III, run in 320x200 resoltuion but to do it on
these LCS you need the 640x480 LCD plates.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> So this is a cost vs. quality issue that has to be
addressed.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> The limited view angle is offset by the fact that the
unit tracks your head...it knows where you are looking, and if the software
is written to understand this it can change the view to track your head
movements.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> We use an IR tracking system right now which is pretty
good and cheap to produce.  We have several other experimental trackers and
we're in the process of trying to find the most reliable version, with the
best range of tracking, for the lowest cost.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> If you are wondering how all this compares to other
things coming out...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> The first thing on the market will probably be the SEGA
Visors...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> To be frank, these are pretty awful.  The resolution is
bad, the unit is bulky, heavy and the tracking system is very unreliable.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Also a Sega Genesis doesn't have the CPU to do all that
much in stereoscopic.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> We are aiming at the 486/Pentium crowd with our unit.
And I say this because you need a LOT of CPU horsepower to produce
stereoscopic images.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> A stereoscopic 3D view, like from a flight simulator,
typically takes twice as long during the vector transformation and rendering
process (since it's two different views in each eye).
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> So you either need to be twice as fast or accept half
the frame rate...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> And a slow frame rate in VR Visors can make you feel
ill.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> We are considering selling a base unit with 640x480
LCDs and a head tracker for around the $500 mark.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> You can also by, as an upgrade, the stereoscopic
option.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> The base unit plugs into your VGA card.  The
stereoscopic option is a new video card, basicly a dual VGA card (two VGA
adapters on one card).
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Without it, you run in monoscopic (both eyes see the
same image).
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> By the way, monoscopic isn't all that bad.  The
headtracking is what really gives the illusion of being immersed...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> in fact a lot of the time you don't notice the
stereoscopic unless the programmer goes out of his way to throw 3D objects in
your face...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> in the same way that in a 3D movie the director has to
go out of his way to throw long objects sticking "out of the screen" so
you'll notice it.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Did I cover your question? (grin)

<[Hoagy] H.DELAPLANT1> i think ya covered! :) thanx!!!

<R.FINLAYSON3> OK, that was lot of good stuff... A couple more things...
<R.FINLAYSON3> Have you thought about using the PowerPC based machines?
<R.FINLAYSON3> And when do you think this is all going to be available to us?

<[David] SIMUTRONICS> My project is basicly to get this stuff ready for home
computers.  Obviously this hardware will be useful for 3DOs, Nintentos,
Genesiseses, and PowerPCs and whatever....maybe even a Newton!  But here's
the thing...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Right now Interactive Technology is the darling of Wall
Street.  Everyone is investing big bucks in a lot of speculative things
(anything with Interactive on the label)...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> and I predict, as many do, that there is going to be a
crash.  What I've been telling our potential investors is that we have to be
realistic about these technologies...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> and try not to scale them for the mass-market too early
because they will end up failing due to a lack of CPU power or whatever.  So
we are spending our efforts on higher end PCs, where we know this thing will
work and where there is at least some market to speak of.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> The hardware itself can be connected to other machines
with minimal effort...it's rather selfcontained except for the stereoscopic
board.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> I expect you will be seeing this stuff in late 95.  The
technology is there, but the problem is investment is pending applications...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> No one wants to fund hardware mfg until software
exists...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> and no one wants to produce software for it if the
hardware doesn't exist. (grin)
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> So we are working a lot of multipartner deals.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Kinda like 3DO but on a much smaller scale.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> We have to basicly get a comittment from multiple
partners for enough PC games that support this to justify a potential million
unit sales.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> (say 6 or 7 GOOD simulator games)
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> And then we're set...going to mass production would be
handled by a 3rd party.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Our niche, besides bull-dogging this technology, is the
online game potential...in other words, CyberSpace.
Prepend mode is OFF.
<[Robert] R.RICE1> SSpeaking of partnerships and investors and games...what
size is your company(i.e. people> and are you
<[Robert] R.RICE1> (prez of my company here...:)
<[Robert] R.RICE1> basically..are you for sale/investing?
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Well the VR concern is actually two companies in
partnership...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Simutronics presently employs five full time people,
and around 16 subcontractors...though you are catching me just about when we
are going to be ramping up to about twice that.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> I didn't quite get your question about investing, what
was that?
<[Robert] R.RICE1> sorry... are you for sale.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> We're a privately held corporation.  We are not
actively looking to cash-in, but no extremely reasonable offer would be
unconsidered. (grin)
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> You can write to email: NHARRIS for more info privately
if you like. :)
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Neil is our Vice President, Marketing.

<[Hoagy] H.DELAPLANT1> ]I've personally trked the virtuality system which has
about a 90 degree fov...
<[Hoagy] H.DELAPLANT1> and  i think that 40 might lessen the sense of
immersion greatly...
<[Hoagy] H.DELAPLANT1> have you considered the LEEP optics system or
something like that?

<[David] SIMUTRONICS> The problem begins at the image generation stage where
we have to be compatible with typicaly resoltuion modes used, say 320x200 or
640x480...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> The optics we use provide a good balance between FOV
and pixel distortion...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> We've tried all sorts of FOV, and nothing has been
entirely decided upon yet.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> One problem we have is in image generation....
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Ideally you should be generating at least 30 frames per
second for smooth animation...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> If you go to 640x480, you have to do four times as much
work as 320x200 in the rendering pipeline.  This can be expensive when you
are doing texturemapping, for example...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Now with stereoscopic you've DOUBLED the amount of work
you have to do again.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> One thing we've done is use 640x480 and then, with our
optics, varied the FOV and then, in the software rendering engine, we
adjusted for the distortion...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> and ended up with some great views!!!!

<[Hoagy] H.DELAPLANT1> That sounds like what I was asking...sounds good.

<[David] SIMUTRONICS> However...your typically game developer isn't going to
be doing this.  To get a lot of products...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> we have to basicly go to Electronic Arts, Microprose,
etc. and say "Hey, all you have to do to support fully immersive VR is these
few changes"
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> And we can get them to do it.  But if you have to
redesign your rendering engine for this, we won't get that much in the way of
positive responses.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> So, it's a trade off between an ideal system and what
we have to do to bring a good VR system to market.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Still, the head-tracking really makes the difference.
In fact, when I'm developing with the VR Visors on...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> (I noticed this just recently) and the tracker is in
the Fab shop being reworked...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> I cannot help but constantly turn my head to try and
look around.  It feels natural even when it's not hooked up.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> So when I'm turning, I'll start turning my head
automatically.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Oh, and by the way...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> We don't stop with the visuals.  We also have full
holophonic sound where you hear things that occur in the VR world from the
direction they occur (relative to your head orientation).
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> You can see some of that in CyberStrike were we have
multichannel sound with dopplar effects, etc. already.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Other interface issues have come up as well...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Our current visors allow you to see the keyboard, but
it's a little difficult...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> so we're probably going to give up on that in favor of
total immersion...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> But, as any flight simulator fan knows, there are a lot
of things to control...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> We have a few other hardware options that might make it
to production...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> One is voice command.  SOme of you may have tried some
form of this with your sound cards in the past...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> if you have, you probably found it was awful.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> We get around the limited capability of voice
recognition by using the "voice mouse" technique...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> A "voice mouse" basicly uses vocal inputs to control
menus rather than spoken commands...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Until voice recogonition becomes reliable, the "voice
mouse" is both quick and useable and a good alternative.  Basicly the
software only has to recongize a few very DISTINCT sounds that cannot be
confused...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> (you get to pick them)...for opening menus and moving
to an option and selecting it.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> This would over lay on the screen, like a HUD.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Interestingly enough...the people we have testing this
have grown attached to using the sounds "GOO" and "GA" a lot...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> So, imagine walking into a room with a bunch of people
wearing wierd shades going "GOO GOO GA GOO GA GA GOO GA" all day long.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> :)
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> One other thing...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> We also have a unit that tracks eye movement. There are
some issues with that which must be addressed before that can be commercial,
however.

<[Hoagy] H.DELAPLANT1> How much for the voice hard/software?

<[David] SIMUTRONICS> The voice system we use is Covox's commercial
unit...nothing fancy.  The trick is our implementation!
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Implementation is the key to the whole thing...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Including the rendering process, as I mentioned before
you risk dropping your frame rate by half when you go to stereoscopic...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> so we've spent considerable time coming up with some
software tricks to nearly eliminate this problem.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> I'll be sharing some of these software development
secrets with the community at the next Computer Game Developers Conference.
<[Zubdew] J.G.H.> Hiya David, Have you heard of the new Atari 64 game machine
the Jaguar? Would you consider developing anything for that or you just
keeping  with IBM for now? I can get you intouch with the people at Atari (or
you can stop in our RTC (page 475) after the New York premier)
<[Zubdew] J.G.H.> (shameless plug) Oh that RTC is the 4th of November ;>

<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Of course I've heard of it!  My VP Marketing is an old
Atari marketing guy. :)
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> I like the idea that Atari is sticking the technology
flag way out there...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> since I'm entirely dissapointed with 3DO.  I know
nothing about the specs of the machine...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> so I can't say more than that.  But from what I've
read, it looks like it can really blastsome bits...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> I will say that awhile back I was solicited to work on
the Lynx...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> and, frankly, I'm glad I didn't now.  I hope Atari can
market the thing properly and sign up GOOD developers quickly.  Any missteps
and it will go nowhere.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Same can be said of Commodore.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> And it's 3DO-like machine it just announced.

<[Denny] DENNYA> David, can you tell us a little about the software that's
under development for this technology? Are you guys doing games and/or other
stuff? Anything specific you can talk about or hint at?

<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Well my job is to do "proof of concept" for the
software. To that extent we've reworked CyberStrike (an existing multiplayer
game onGEnie, page 1380) to work with the VR Visor.  In that one rework we
demonstrate that this works with PC hardware...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> and that it works as a multi-user environment (aka
CyberSpace) over low-bandwidth carriers...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> I might point out that we've gotten lots of
back-channel angry calls from...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> folks who have been spending tens of millions on
high-bandwidth systems...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> and, as justification to their investors, have told
them that this high-bandwidth technology is a REQUIREMENT for the types of
applications we've been saying can be done NOW.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> After several "OH yeah, PROVE IT" requests....we did.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Our next step is working out some deals with major PC
game producers to commit to products for the unit (underway)...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> and that will fullfill what the hardware investors are
waiting for.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> The trick was showing both of them it can be done, and
it isn't expensive.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> I might point out that the VR technology we are
using...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> has several key elements that have just recently
received their patent.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> This will have ramifications for others who are working
on these devices. :)
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> This was important, as well, from an investor
standpoint.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Anyway, we don't get those calls anymore.  Oh, by the
way...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> The company TV Answer, who has spent about $50 mil so
far, has come out with their FIRST product...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> they changedtheir name to E*ON.  Good job guys!
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> I think that about covers everything regarding the unit
itself.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> As for software, if this thing goes through it will be
bundled with at least one game and several others to follow.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Or at the same time.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Non-game projects are also being considered, but that's
not my end of the deal.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> (I know, for example, a major CAD producer has a
version that works in VR...that would be neat!)

<[Robert] R.RICE1> you mentioned that it was infra-red based..who is it by...

<[Robert] R.RICE1> does it affect the immersion <can you turn your head all
<[Robert] R.RICE1> the way around???
<[Robert] R.RICE1> (can it do 360 in all 6 degrees? (pitch roll yaw)

<[David] SIMUTRONICS> You have a total of 180 degrees left/right, and
something less than 90 up/down...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Only those two axis...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Here are some things to think about...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> First, regarding the # of axis... we had a problem with
the input capabilities of the IBM...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> We want to keep the costs down, so we're using Joystick
2 as the input for the head tracker...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> that leaves us with two axis.  We did some work with
trackers that have up to 6...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> but didn't get a substantial benefit from it for game
applications.  Perhaps for CAD and such, a higher end system that is, it
would be worth it.

<[Robert] R.RICE1> good point :)

<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Also, to put this product in the mass market we've had
to make some design decisions based on consumer saftey...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Let's face it SOMEONE...SOMEDAY is going to claim they
were injured because they were immersed in VR and didn't see that MAC truck.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Or didn't see that the modem caught fire.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> In terms of headtracking...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> We actually want to limit it's capabilities to those
movements that a person can comfortably and safely perform while sitting.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> If they start twisting in their chair, as we've had
happen in our full 360 tracker, people fall out of it.  All the time.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> I've had people bonk their heads on the table trying to
look under a VR object!
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> And quite often they swivel right into someone standing
next to them.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> The limited head tracker we use not only prevents this
(since you stop turning when the view stops tracking automatically)...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> but is MUCH less expensive to produce.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> In fact, dirt cheap.

<[Robert] R.RICE1> we've had problems with people smacking their heads on our
rollbars..:)

<[David] SIMUTRONICS> And it has to work in ALL environments you would find a
PC...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> so most trackers that handle full ranges of motion have
problems with sensor placement.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Ours requires only one unit on top of the monitor and
the part that's hooked up to the VR visor.

<[Robert] R.RICE1> what about lag time?

<[David] SIMUTRONICS> By the way, our VR Visor by RPI is called an HMSI, Head
Mounted Sensory Interface.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> The unit has no noticeable lag time, however...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> No latiency in the hardware, but...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> We do introduce a bit of it in our software in an
effort to smooth it out...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> since it will "jitter" annoyingly if you don't filter
it a bit.  We have it where we can adjust it up and down...
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> You can sit it high and it will be this great smooth
panning motion (about 5 seconds BEHIND your movements), or it can be
absolulute tracking of your head position.
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> WIth some jitter which can be anoying since your eyes
don't compensate for it when looking at a LCD plate's image like they do when
you look at things in the real world.

<[jPeg] P.HERRINGTON> Thanks, David... this has been great...
<[jPeg] P.HERRINGTON> Please stay for some open chatting if you can spare the
time.

<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Sure. :)

<[Luis] L.SALA> <<clap,clap,clap>>
<[Robert] R.RICE1> <whistle!!
<[jPeg] P.HERRINGTON> And thank you everybody for coming tonight!
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Aw gee. :)
<[Denny] DENNYA> Thanks guys. I want this stuff!
<[Luis] L.SALA> Same here!
<[Robert] R.RICE1> ditto!
<[Hoagy] H.DELAPLANT1> Thanks alot, Dave and everyone else here!
<[Robert] R.RICE1> really!
<[David] SIMUTRONICS> I hope I gave out enough details.
<[Luis] L.SALA> Very exciting!!!
<[Robert] R.RICE1> :)

<[David] SIMUTRONICS> Having been IMMERSED in VR for awhile now, I forget
which things people might not be familiar with. :)

[end of file]