The California Collection/TheCaliforniaCollection.cdr/his056/bl44.arj/BL44.TXT

Text File | 1990-05-29 | 41KB | 848 lines

Here's a lively discussion taken from BLINKTALK; a blind support national
conference which you will find interesting.



   Date : 22-May-91 22:51
   From : David Goldfield
     To : All
Subject : Hot Topic

Well, now that i got your attension with this subject line, here's what's on
my mind! This echo is in great need of new and fresh HOT discussion, so I will
initiate.
     As many of you surely know, many services around the country, (services
of all types) offer discounts and various price breaks for us handicapped
folks, especially us poor blinks. For example, in Philadelphia, (my home town)
a blind person can ride a bus or train for half the normal fare. Amtrak offers
similar discounts, although not 50 percent off, of course.  Personally, I
NEVER accept such discounts or favors just because I'm blind and I encourage
all of  you to do the same.  I am in favor of discounts for groups of people
such as senior citizens, people on low incomes, but why should I get a
discount on the train when I make just as much money (maybe more) than the
sighted guy sitting next to me who has to fork out the bucks.  Once, while I
was paying the fare on the train, I nearly got into an argument with the
collector because he thought I was nuts.  A woman next to me defended him by
saying to me that other groups of people get discounts too, such as (my
favorite) folks in the military.  Well
She just pushed the wrong button.  I told her that I do not deserve a discount
just because I am blind and furthermore I felt her argument was rediculous as
I feel people in the military deserve a discount even less, as the military is
involved in the profession of killing.  (hey, Willie. The traffic here may
increase 100fold because of this post, so watch out.)  i realize I am mixing a
variety of topics, but ther's only so many times I can read about airlines and
the Nls Database.  Sorry, guys, but a man's gottaa do what a man's gotta do. I
look forward to your messages.


   Date : 24-May-91 11:34
   From : Phil Scovell
     To : David Goldfield
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

Hello David,

Glad you brought up this topic.  I don't know how much I agree with your views
however.  Denver doesn't allow half price or even reduced fees for blind bus
riders.  They do, on the other hand, have special rides where by they will
pick up the person at their home and drive them directly to their job.  They
only charge the normal fee.  The bus service in Denver in many ways is poor
and doesn't travel all over the metro area.  Denver itself only has about five
hundred thousand people.  The whole metro area has about two million.  In
another words, most of the people live in the smaller town areas around Denver
where the bus service is thin.  In light of what you said, would you not use
this special bus service?  At least in Denver, the blind are not charge for
local directory assistance calls.  Would you refuse this service, too.  What
about your income tax?  Do you believe the blind shouldn't use what used to be
called double exemption?  Although I used to be very active in the NFB when I
lived in Nebraska, I was one of the states NFB vice presidents, I never fully
agreed with some of these stands they took.  My reason is this.  For a blind
person to be as independent as a sighted person, they have to spent three
times the amount of money.  For example, for a thousand dollars a sighted
person can buy a nice computer complete with a monitor.  A blind person, on
the other hand, has to spend nearly that much more just to make it talk.  I
could, of course, name many other such expenses a blind person has such as
opticons, talking calculators, and the like.  My sighted kids have little two
dollar digital watches but I have to pay fifty dollars for the same thing.  In
short, it costs a lot of money to be blind.  If, that is, you want to be
independent. I just purchased an Arkenstone in order to read my own mail and
other printed materials.  I can't write it off on my income tax as a personal
expence.  A sighted person doesn't need a four thousand dollar device to read.
Recently a large Denver grocery store started home deliveries to anyone and
everyone who wanted to use the service.  After a few weeks, the service proved
to be so successful, they now offer to wave the $9 fee for delivery to the
handicapped...I guess that means the blind, too.  Do I take the $9 discount?
You bet!  Why?  Because my wife and I are both blind with three kids.  We
spend about $150 per week on food.  There's no way my wife and I could take
all the food on a city bus so we'd have to pay for a cab. The cab fare would
run about $10 round trip.  We buy weekly.  I'm saving about $35 per month by
not paying the delivery fee.  I didn't ask the store to offer this service
free to the blind but I will take advantage of it because that's an extra $30
to $40 per month I have to spend on food for my family that I wouldn't have
otherwise.  I'm guessing, David, you'd not only not use the delivery service
but if you did, you'd pay the extra $9 because you wouldn't want any special
treatment?  Speaking of special treatment, do you use the Library of Congress
talking book program?  Why?  Millions of tax payers dollars are spent to
support that special service for the blind.  If you pay full price for the
city bus, why not refuse the talking book program?  David, do you believe the
government should be required to label the buttons in an elavator in Braille?
That's special treatment, is it not?
My mom rides the city bus for just 15 cents because senior citizens get a
discount.  David, when you turn sixty, will you accept senior citizen
discounts?  If you would accept such discounts as a senior citizen then why
not as a blind person?

Since this will be my only post on this subject, let me
state my personal opinion for the record.  Since it costs bunches of money to
be blind and independent, too, I don't think a blind person should even have
to pay income tax no matter how much money he or she might make.  That would
make it possible to spend more of our money on things that help us remain
independent.  Oh, one more thing, I thought the military was paid to defend
us; not paid to kill.  Would you rather live in a country which doesn't have a
defence such as Kuwait?
Why do I have the feeling I'm going
to regret  the statement of my own personal opinion?

Phil.

   Date : 24-May-91 07:49
   From : Walter Siren
     To : David Goldfield
Subject : Hot Topic

 DG> Well, now that i got your attension with this subject line, here's what's
 DG> on my mind! This echo is in great need of new and fresh HOT discussion,
so
 DG> I will initiate.

     You can say that again.

 DG>      As many of you surely know, many services around the country,
 DG> (services of all types) offer discounts and various price breaks for us
 DG> handicapped folks, especially us poor blinks. For example, in
Philadelphia,
 DG> (my home town) a blind person can ride a bus or train for half the normal
 DG> fare. Amtrak offers similar discounts, although not 50 percent off, of
 DG> course.  Personally, I NEVER accept such discounts or favors just because
 DG> I'm blind and I encourage all of  you to do the same.  I am in favor of
 DG> discounts for groups of people such as senior citizens, people on low
 DG> incomes, but why should I get a discount on the train when I make just as
 DG> much money (maybe more) than the sighted guy sitting next to me

     Of course that same arguement can be the same with any other group that
gets a discount.  There are some senior citizens who are very well off also,
but they still get the discount.  Yet, they are getting it just because they
are old.

 DG> fork out the bucks.  Once, while I was paying the fare on the train, I
 DG> nearly got into an argument with the collector because he thought I was
 DG> nuts.  A woman next to me defended him by saying to me that other groups
of
 DG> people get discounts too, such as (my favorite) folks in the military.
 DG> Well
 DG> She just pushed the wrong button.  I told her that I do notdeserve a
 DG> discount just because I am blind and furthermore I felt her argument was
 DG> rediculous as I feel people in the military deserve a discount even less,
 DG> as the military is involved in the profession of killing.

     Well, there I think that you went astray.  They are in the proffession of
defending us, and the killing is unfortunately a result of that defense.
Well, I know that there are those who say that the desert storm was not
defending us, but it depends how one looks at it.  If we let agretion remain
unchecked, then it will eventually get to us.  We saw that with world war 2.

 DG> i realize I am mixing a variety of topics, but ther's only so many times
I
 DG> can read about airlines and the Nls Database.

     You can say that again.  It would be a nice change to have something
different, but even this subject was touched on from the various aspects
before on here, but it has been a while.

     As far as turning down the discounts that are available to us, if they
are there, then I will accept them.  Some of them I have mixed feeling about,
but if they are going to give them to other groups, then I have no problem
with getting them for us.

     The free mailing privelege, when it was first given to us, I felt weird
about that one, but I can see the arguements for it.  Of course back in the
olden days, it was strictly for reading material and the like, and not for
letters.  I deffinitely think that it should stand, because we can't go down
to the local library like our sighted friends and borrow a book.  I realize
that our mailing media does cost more to send if they would charge for it, so
I can understand the free privelege, but if they would charge us the same for
sending a tape letter, or braille letter, as a print letter, I would have no
problem with that one.  However, there are a lot of blind people that are not
very well off financially, and there only form of entertainment is those pen
pals, or tape pals, and I would not want to see them deprived of that.  So I
am afraid that there probably is no easy solution.  If the privelege is there,
and if you take advantage of it or not, should be your business, and if you
don't, it will not make any difference to others anyway, so why not take it.
Btw, do you accept your extra income tax exemption for the fact that you are
blind?

               Walter


   Date : 24-May-91 09:27
   From : Margo Downey
     To : David Goldfield
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

Am not expressing an opinion in this message about discounts, but, what do
people think of this statement:  The unemployment/underemployment of blind
people makes it necessary for services to give discounts since blind people
don't yet in general make as much money as others."  Just a question to open
this topic wider.

   Date : 24-May-91 12:29
   From : Dan Kysor
     To : David Goldfield
Subject : Hot Topic

that's all well and good about not excepting discounts because of your
blindness and your financial equality with your sighted counterparts but
statistically, you are in the minority of blind income earners and what about
the 80% to 90% unemployed blind?  dan

   Date : 24-May-91 14:19
   From : Mary Otten
     To : David Goldfield
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

I'm not quite sure where to start with your hot topic. In principle, Ia agree
with you that nobody should get a break just because of some condition or
other, and that would include senior citizens. Why should a senior citizen get
a discount when they may be making or have salted away more money than you or
Iwill ever have? In practice, however, since our society does not operate on
that principle, that is, people are not charged for services based solely on
their ability to pay, I have a little harder time with your position. Maybe
I'm just rationalizing, but I figure Ipay a lot of money in taxes for services
I will never be able to use, cannot have access to. I'm thinking of public
libraries, public parks, all sorts of adult education classes to which I have
no access because Ieither can't get there or they don't provice material in a
usable medium, etc. Therefore, if somebody wants to give me a break on public
transit systems, city buses etc, I'll take it and really Idon't feel llike I'm
getting a big break. Isort of look at it as a quid pro quo for some of the
things Ipay for but can't use. I suppose society doesn't look at it that way,
but Iguess at this point in my life Idon't care. Iused to be really militant
on this issue, felt the way you do and in fact, got into arguments with L.A.
city bus drivers when Itried to pay the full fair. Now blind people ride free
there. It used to be a reduced fair. By the way, if you feel the way you do,
Ihope you don't claim the blindness exemption on your taxes. Of course, if you
itemize, you can't get it anyway, and if you own a house, you pobably
itemize, so that might not be a relevant point to make to you.


   Date : 24-May-91 15:18
   From : Beth Hatch-alleyne
     To : David Goldfield
Subject : Hot Topic

David; I agree with you one hundred percent.  I travel by bus, air, and train
quite a bit.  I don't feel that just because I'm blind that I should get a
discount.  Many people argue that blind people are in general at a lower
income than sighted people, and that just the fact they're going out is good
enough to warrant half fair.  I don't buy this premes.  I've been on many
busses, here in Rochester, and other places I lived and visited, where after
paying full fair, the driver would try to give me back money.  I politely
declined, saying I'd prefer to pay full fare.  I've had more of a problem when
drivers ask passengers, some with crutches or walkers, to move from the front
seats of the bus so I can sit there.  Again, I feel blindness isn't a reason
why I should sit in the front of the buss. I am not going to fall on my face
if I have to stand on a crowded bus with everyone else.  I am perfectly
capable of finding a seat without someone feeling they have to give up their
seat for me. Granted, I usually sit up front if I'm not getting off at a stop
other than the last one so the driver can see me and not use it as that as an
excuse that he/she forgot my stop, but I sit in the second, third, or fourth,
row, all within asking distance of the driver to make sure I'm not missing my
stop.  I'm not going to go any further on this, as I'll give you guys a break
and let you read other messages.  But if we are going to want equal treatment
from the siighted community, then we need to pay equal rates, Beth.
---
   Date : 25-May-91 08:31
   From : Mika Pyyhkala
     To : David Goldfield
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

Hello David,
This is a good topic to start discussing in the echo
again, we've touched on it a bit before too.
Anyway, up until I was about 16 or 17 years old, (I am now 18)
I would accept the free rides on our public transportation systems.
However, at that point, I felt  that the rides were unjustified.
I feel that since sighted people have to pay for their transportation
that blind people, or anyone else for that matter, also should
have to pay.  Also, I agree that any discounts
should be bassed on income.
Also, I feel that by riding the subway or whatever for free, you are
sending a political statement to the people around you that
reenforces stereotypical roles believed to be played by blind
people.
If we want equality, we should also accept the responsibility it intails.
I too have had difficulty in paying the faire, the same
type you've had.
One subway driver told me that it was against the law for
him to charge me, and I told him that I wanted to pay, and
he said that if you want to be that way fine.
Another bus driver told me that I should make a donation to
a church instead of paying for the bus.
In response to the curosity of the MBTA employees,
this week in fact, I am just completing a one-page flyer
on why I pay for my public transportation.  I have to
make a few minor corrections, and print it and copy it.  So, when somebody
asks, I can just give them one.
I can also post in the echo when I get it ready, which hopefully
will be in the next few days.
Another question to ponder is that if one were absolutely
poor, and living in the street for instance, and blind, if
we would take the free ride.  If we did, we would compromise
our pricniples, if we did not, we might not be
able to get off the street, or go anywhere.  This may also relate a bit
to the topic someone brought up about whether a blind
person would rather be mugged, or victimized in nother
way by a criminal, instead of being treated differently because
of blindndess.
-Mika


   Date : 25-May-91 07:20
   From : Mary Otten
     To : Phil Scovell
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

I agre absolutely with all of your message, except the part about not paying
income tax. Ican't immagine thinking that a blind person shouldn't pay, no
matter how much money he or she makes. That is simply going too far.


   Date : 25-May-91 08:20
   From : Walter Siren
     To : Phil Scovell
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

 PS> Since this will be my only post on this subject, let me
 PS> state my personal opinion for the record.  Since it costs bunches of
money
 PS> to be blind and independent, too, I don't think a blind person should
even
 PS> have to pay income tax no matter how much money he or she might make.
That
 PS> would make it possible to spend more of our money on things that help us
 PS> remain independent.  Oh, one more thing, I thought the military was paid
to
 PS> defend us; not paid to kill.  Would you rather live in a country which
 PS> doesn't have a defence such as Kuwait?
 PS> Why do I have the feeling I'm going
 PS> to regret  the statement of my own personal opinion?

     Phil, I don't know.  I think that it was well said.

               Walter


   Date : 25-May-91 10:06
   From : Walter Siren
     To : Mary Otten
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

 MO> do, Ihope you don't claim the blindness exemption on your taxes. Of
course,
 MO> if you itemize, you can't get it anyway,

     Mary, I would not bet any money on this, but I am almost sure that you
can get the extra exemption if you don't itemize.  However, it is not really
an exemption anymore, it is a tax credit which is not quite as good as the
previous exemption was.

               Walter


   Date : 25-May-91 09:40
   From : Walter Siren
     To : Beth Hatch-alleyne
Subject : Hot Topic

 BH> David; I agree with you one hundred percent.  I travel by bus, air, and
 BH> train quite a bit.  I don't feel that just because I'm blind that I
should
 BH> get a discount.  Many people argue that blind people are in general at a
 BH> lower income than sighted people, and that just the fact they're going
out
 BH> is good enough to warrant half fair.  I don't buy this premes.

     Beth, tell me, are you going to pay the full price of a hotel room in New
Orleans when you come to the NFB convention.   You don't think that price that
NFB negotiated is a full hotel price do you.  It is far from it.  As far as
convention rates are concerned, there isn't a sighted convention who can get
anywhere near that rate.  There are sighted conventions who come down here a
lot larger than the NFB, and there rates are not discounted near that much.

               Walter


   Date : 25-May-91 13:11
   From : Tim Cumings
     To : Beth Hatch-alleyne
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

When I'm on a bus or a subway and someone offers 6give to give me their seat,
I politely depine deacline and just say that I've been sitting all day long.


   Date : 25-May-91 14:47
   From : David Goldfield
     To : Mary Otten
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

Mary,
     First, let me say that I have validated you on Blazie Engr.'s BBs. As far
as your message goes.  Your point about senior citizens is, in a way, a good
one, although so many folks, even younger people, have managed to save here
and there, and it would be impossible to keep track of who's got money and who
doesn't.  Basically, senior citizens, in my opinion, deserve a break because
they've lived longer than me and have worked and paid their dues.  i also want
to say that I don't give myself any tax breaks just because I don't see.  As
far as paying for services you can't use, I kind of see your point, except
that -- don't we all in some way pay for a service we can't use.  Yes, it's
true that my tax money goes for things i can never benefit from.  In my
opinion, that does not entitle me to a discount on a bus or train.  My taxes
go for things that not only can't I use, but don't believe in either, like the
military.  Sure wish I could do something about that.  At least I can vote,
but I'm getting off topic.


   Date : 25-May-91 15:10
   From : David Goldfield
     To : Walter Siren
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

Walter, i agree about the free matter privelege.  Since Braille takes up much
more space than print, and since Braille paper is much heavier being able to
send material in the mail for free is a good service.


   Date : 25-May-91 15:21
   From : David Goldfield
     To : Phil Scovell
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

Phil,
You won't regre stating your opinion, as far as i am concerned.  I will try to
answer your arguments which were excellent, by the way.
I do jnot claim a tax exemption.  However, tax writeoffs for special
equipment, like an ocr, I agree with.
the Nls program is not one I have a problem with.  My problem is with
discounts for services such as travel like busses or trains.  I am not saying
that essential services like putting Braille on elevatore should be done away
with.  Because this is Blinktalk and not the Politics echo i am not going into
my views about the military.  As far as shuttle services, yes I would use it
if a bvus could not come to my area.

   Date : 26-May-91 09:48
   From : Mika Pyyhkala
     To : Phil Scovell
Subject : Hot Topic

Hi Phil,
You are correct that to be blind, and independent costs lots and lots
of money.  For example, equipment such as adaptive computers,
reading machines, and much more!
However, to say that blind people should not
have to pay income tax, or that we should receive special
discounts on things with transportation, I believe, is
the wrong way to address the fact that it is expensive
to be blind.
For instance, if Malcolm Forbes, Bill Gates, or Donald Trump
became blind, should they be exempted from income tax?
Also, I believe that if we take discounts on transportation
systems, we send a message to the general public around us.
If the average Joe sees a blind person getting on a subway
for free, he will at least subtully reenforce
the notion that blind people should be treated differently.
This atitude can manefest itself into otther problems.
The answer to the expenses of blindness is not
tax rebats, and transportation discounts, it's encreased funding
assistance for the things we need, i.e. braille,
adaptive computer equipment, etc.
This will help us, while not conveying negative messages to
the public.
When the public sees that blind people are exempted from tax,
do you think they get the feeling that
blind peeople should be treated equally, and
share in the responsibility of a society?
They may not even realize that it is more
expensive to be blind, and just think the tax break
is there to take care of us.
Keep up the discussion,
Mika

   Date : 26-May-91 10:07
   From : Mika Pyyhkala
     To : Walter Siren
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

In your message, you asked, if conventioneers, particularly
those who are opposed to such things as transportation discounts,
are going to pay full price for hotel rooms.  You also
pointed out that larger conventions come to New Orleans,
and do not receive as great a discount, alluding to the
idea that this discount is not just basssed on the fact
that NFB will bring a lot of people to the hotel, but
that NFB will bring a lot of blind people to the
hotel.
This is a good point to explore and discuss!
My first question is if other groups, for instance
nonproffit organizations, can receive this same discount.
Or, were you referring to when corporations come to
conventions in New Orleans.
Another question that arrises, is that the two organizations
probably have contracts with the hotel to use a particular chain frequently.
This may also account for the discount.
-Mika


   Date : 26-May-91 14:07
   From : David Goldfield
     To : Mika Pyyhkala
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

Myka,
Don't have much to say about your response.  When someone agrees with you
there isn't much more you can say.  Your point about stereotypes was a good
one.  By riding on ther subway for free, you are making the statement that
blind people deserve a break.  Maybe we do in certain areas, but not on the
subway. Thanks.


   Date : 26-May-91 20:51
   From : Tim Cumings
     To : Mika Pyyhkala
Subject : Re: Hot Topic



--- Opus-CBCS 1.14
   Date : 26-May-91 13:07
   From : Dan Kysor
     To : Walter Siren
Subj: Hot Topic

well i agree with phil too but dosn't blind adaptive equipment, clothing,
travel expense (cars purchases etc) qualify as a tax right off?

   Date : 26-May-91 16:33
   From : Beth Hatch-alleyne
     To : Walter Siren
Subject : Hot Topic

Walter; although I appreciate the points you made in your message, there is a
difference between what I was saying and the NFB convention rates.....Don't
stop reading yet, Walter, I'm not going to drop the subject.  I have never
used half fare when I travel as an individual, as I said before.  I have been
to many conventions, state conventions for the NFB, where we paid the same
rates as sighted conventioneers.  We have to guarantee the hotel that they'll
be 300 or so people at the NFB convention, that is why we get that price.
I'll do some research on it to find out more about this, but I have heard of
groups of sighted conventioneers having thousands of people in one hotel and
getting great rates.  Although I know where you're leading in this message, I
believe there is more to it than you think.  The NFB gets the same rates for
that huge group of people, just as sighted conventioneers do.  Every
convention I've been to, Massachusets, New Hampshire, Vermont, New York, we've
always paid the same as sighted conventioneers.  I also got a good deal from
the airline, not because I'm blind, as I didn't tell them, but because I
shopped around for the best deal, which is what anyone does who has such a
huge convention.  I hope this is a bit clear, if not, Walter, please leave me
another message and we'll talk about it more, Beth.
---
   Date : 27-May-91 01:13
   From : Beth Hatch-alleyne
     To : Margo Downey
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

Margo; at the risk of repeting myself, please see my messages to Walter and
others, Beth.
---
   Date : 26-May-91 17:47
   From : Walter Siren
     To : Mika Pyyhkala
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

 MP> My first question is if other groups, for instance
 MP> nonproffit organizations, can receive this same discount.

     I am talking about proffit and nonproffit organizations.

 MP> Another question that arrises, is that the two organizations
 MP> probably have contracts with the hotel to use a particular chain
 MP> frequently.
 MP> This may also account for the discount.

     Does the NFB stay only in Hyat hotels?

               Walter


   Date : 26-May-91 13:18
   From : Tom Gerhart
     To : Tim Cumings
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

 TC> When I'm on a bus or a subway and someone offers 6give to give
 TC> me their seat, I politely depine deacline and just say that
 TC> I've been sitting all day long.


I used to do this also but now I see that it is much better  to take the
seat and show the public at large that I can be as tired  after a hard
day on the job just like my sighted brothers. This is much easier for
the public to understand  if the person who is giving me the seat is an
old lady who can just about stand up. tom G.

   Date : 27-May-91 09:37
   From : Dan Kysor
     To : David Goldfield
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

whats the difference between free matter i.e., braille being too bulky and
the like and reduced bus or transportation fairs.  blind people don't drive
(most of us) and according to the free matter logic you described, cars are
inaccessable and taxi's are too expensive so it just seems logical to reduce
the blind bus rates as true for senior citizens... dan

   Date : 27-May-91 09:55
   From : Dan Kysor
     To : Mika Pyyhkala
Subject : Hot Topic

there we go again... why is it that i can always tell who is aspousing nfb
docterine... that is, second guessing what the sighted are going to think...
blindness is expensive.  if i have to supplement my travel with taxis and
instead of buying a bic pen, i have to go out and spend $450 on a brailler and
then hire a reader at $5 per hour to read my mail and label  my food cans, why
not reduce my bus fair?  well, since your second guessing what sighted folks
think about this issue (who conducted the sighted survey?)i'll do the same in
a positive manner.  i figure the reduced bus fair is predicated on the
understanding that i incurr all these expensesand thus, live in an aware,
enlightened society... well, maybe i am carrying it a little far what you get
my point... dan, too vain  to be blind

   Date : 27-May-91 11:23
   From : Walter Siren
     To : Dan Kysor
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

 DK> well i agree with phil too but dosn't blind adaptive equipment, clothing,
 DK> travel expense (cars purchases etc) qualify as a tax right off?
     Well, you included too many things in your write offs.  The only time
that you can have a write off as the things you described, would be if you are
business for yourself.  Clothing would only apply, if you were required to
wear a uniform.  Travel expenses only if you go on a business trip.  Travel
between work and home does not count.  Even guide dog expenses have to come
under your medical expense allowance, and If you don't have too many medical
expenses, it won't help you, since they have cut down a great deal on medical
expenses.

               Walter


   Date : 27-May-91 06:33
   From : Mary Otten
     To : David Goldfield
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

Hi David, and thanks for the validation. You mentioned write offs for special
equipment. What write offs? Unless you use the equip for your work, so far as
Iknow, no write off is possible. That is another reason why Idon't
particularly mind taking the little crumbs they give, like a cheaper bus ride.
Ican't write off the speech synthesizer for this computer, nor will Ibe able
to write off my ocr device, when and if Iget it etc. Somebody with my income,
if they weren't blind, would surely have a car and, yes, the expenses
associated with it, but they'd also save a lot of time and agrivation. But I'd
have to have a whole lot more income to be able to afford a driver etc, full
time, Imean. I guess Ilook at it as being caught in the middle. I'm not saying
society owes me this lttle break on transportation, but I'm not turning it
down either. I also think that the number of services, paid for by thetax
peyers, to which Idon't have access just because Iam blind, is greater than
the number to which the average sighted person doesn't have access.
Rationalization? Yes, maybe. But, as has been said before in other posts,
society isn't perfect, isn't built on perfect reliance on unalterable
principles. I do, however, think you or anybody else should have theright to
go ahead and pay full fair if your conscience demands it and not be hastled by
anybody.


   Date : 27-May-91 20:13
   From : Beth Hatch-alleyne
     To : Tim Cumings
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

Tim; I agree.  Depending on what the situation, however, I just decline
politely.  It is not necessary to explain why most of the time, Beth.
---
   Date : 27-May-91 13:58
   From : Jake Daniel
     To : Mika Pyyhkala
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

Hi Mika,
      After reading your comments on free transportation for the blind and
then reading the reply you received from Dan Kysor, I am forced to agree with
Dan.  He's absolutely correct when he states, infact itemizes,
 that many things wich cost the average sighted person only cents costs us so
much more.  The brailler verses the ball point pin is a perfect example.
There are so many more.  Another that pops to mind as I sit here  typing away
on this machine is all the extras I had to buy just to get into the world of
computers.
      Infact, this whole issue brings to mind the thought that for so many
years blind activists fought for just such considerations as extra tax
exemptions and reduced public transportation fees.  It seems a shame for this
new radical view of blind independence should be deystroying so many hard won
victories.
      Don't get me wrong.  I'm as independent as I can be, I think.  But there
are limits to the amount of confusion we can force upon the sighted and still
retain their respect.  In other words, 1 blind person says 1 thing 1 day and
another blind person says a completely different thing about his/her
independence the next day.  No wonder some sighted individuals don't know how
to act around blind persons.  It's to bad there's not an organization that
really does give a true a-cross-the-board  representation of the blind
community as a whole.  Please don't even try to say that the organization I
invision is N.F.B.  I can only sum up my feelings about N.F.B. in 2 words, "IT
SUCKS!"  Oh well, I call'em as I don't see'm!  Jake

   Date : 28-May-91 11:25
   From : Walter Siren
     To : Dan Kysor
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

 DK> whats the difference between free matter i.e., braille being too bulky
and
 DK> the like and reduced bus or transportation fairs.  blind people don't
drive
 DK> (most of us) and according to the free matter logic you described, cars
are
 DK> inaccessable and taxi's are too expensive so it just seems logical to
 DK> reduce the blind bus rates as true for senior citizens... dan

     Dan, you are right, it's that inconsistency that I can't understand, or
you might call it that double standard.

               Walter


   Date : 27-May-91 09:21
   From : Gary Petraccaro
     To : David Goldfield
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

David,

     I oppose discounts of most sorts.  As for the handicapped, they just
make us look more helpless than we are.  Frankly favor discounts for cops,
fire fighters, military.  All discounting should be discretionary--not
governmental in nature, and, of course, anyone should be able to not take
advantage of such a policy.

   Date : 27-May-91 21:09
   From : Gary Petraccaro
     To : Walter Siren
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

Walter,

     Thanks for replying to David's message.  It reminded me that the
discount here in Pittsburgh applied, if memory serves me right, only during
off-peak hours (which means not during those times working people usually
went to and from work).  That was just fine with me.

   Date : 28-May-91 01:42
   From : William Wilson
     To : David Goldfield
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

 DG>  money and who doesn't.  Basically, senior citizens, in my
 DG>  opinion, deserve a break because they've lived longer than me
 DG>  and have worked and paid their dues.

David,
    Let me make clear right from the beginning that I am leaving this
message sort of tongue in cheek, and although I actually do basically
mean every word, I realize on the other hand that I am a cold,
unthinking, and cruel person, and therefore expect to not receive a lot
of support with this one...

     David, I think people who have managed to reach the age of 65
should get down on their knees and thank their maker every night that he
allowed them to reach such an age, as far too many people work their
butts off all their life, contribute to funds supposed to take care of
them once they retire or become disabled, and then, on hole 14 of their
first golf game after retirement, they have a massive coronary and bite
the big one!  In other words, the only alternative I know to not
reaching old age is croaking, so why in the heck are blind people who
are too proud to accept handouts merely because they are blind willing
to give everything they ask for to an elderly person???

     Sure David, if the majority of elderly people I knew had, as you
said, worked all their lives and were now sitting on the edge of
poverty, I'd buy your logic to some degree, but that just isn't what I
see in my experiences with the senior citizens of this city!  In fact,
let me tell you about public transportation in Pittsburgh.
    First of all, yes, blind people do get half fare on the busses here,
but not during morning or evening rush hour, so if you're using the
busses to get to work or school as a blind person, you pay the whole
fare like everybody else.
    Oops, excuse me...like everybody else except senior citizens that
is!  They get on scott free, of course, cause they deserve it, right?
    One of my favorite bus drivers was an old codger himself, who every
morning after I put my fare in the change box, would give me a
disertation on how the old people of the city were dragging the country
down, asking for handout after handout while I, a blind man trying hard
to improve my employmentability by getting an education, had to pay full
fare and the scoundrels of society danced by in their Brooks Brothers
suits and their bus pass!  In all honesty, I started catching an earlier
bus, as his disertations were usually loud enough to be heard by the
entire bus, which usually consisted of about 90% pass wielding retirees,
and it was quite embarassing to me, but he had some points, ya know?
     Likewise, we have a paratransit system in this city that, although
it is supposedly for both the elderly and the disabled, blindness alone
is not enough reason to obtain the service.  On the contrary, if you are
over the age of 65, you can have Access, as it is called, pick you up
right at your door and deliver your elderly bunns to where ever you
desire!  Ironically, and again, this is no bull, I know of several old
people who live in the suburbs of Pittsburgh, own and drive their own
cars, and yet when it is time to go somewhere like downtown where the
parking is a real bear, call their local paratransit office and schedule
their chauffer!
     Meanwhile, by the way, Access also has what is-¥í╜▀ù
R╓εÉa "pink"
ticket in addition to those they sell to the disabled or elderly client
wAZnÇ╤¡VKü«i.W⌡ce.  These "pink" tickets are supposed to be used by any
person the disabled or elderly person wants as an aid, but I, even
though I am not "disabled" enough to obtain the service as I am just
blind, am unable to use a pink ticket as an aid for another disabled
person because I am blind!  (Hmmm, does this sound like discrimination
to anyone?)

     I guess I should keep my mouth shut and allow senior citizens to
get their hands on everything they can, cause hey, with any luck at all,
maybe I'll make it to that wonderful age of 65 and have the world by the
balls!  I'll be able to ride the bus for free, I'll get paratransit when
I don't feel like rubbing elbows with those common people on the bus,
and hey, maybe I'll even be able to use a pink ticket to act as some
other old codger's aid, cause instead of being denied because I'm blind,
they'll allow me to cause I'm an old codger, what do you think?
                                        Willie


   Date : 27-May-91 19:10
   From : Jeff Salzberg
     To : Mika Pyyhkala
Subject : Re: Hot Topic

 MP> For instance, if Malcolm Forbes, Bill Gates, or Donald Trump
 MP> became blind, should they be exempted from income tax?

 More importantly, if Bill Gates became blind, you can BET that all this
 Graphical User Interface crap would be thrown out the...er...window.