Day 205 - 17 Jan 96 - Page 13

     
     1   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Just to help you think about it, the
     2        difficulty I have at the moment is, I do not see how that
     3        does in relation to torture, because the word "torture" in
     4        "McTorture" is only, as I understand it, prayed in aid by
     5        the Plaintiffs -- this is as I understand it at the
     6        moment -- in order to draw the inference of utter
     7        indifference.  It may be a much more strongly expressed
     8        opinion than utterly indifferent, but Mr. Rampton is not
     9        complaining about the strength of the expression.  He says,
    10        at the end of the day, you can only torture someone if you
    11        are utterly indifferent to the welfare of the person or the
    12        animal concerned, and he imputes utter indifference from
    13        that, or is going to argue that I should.  You have no
    14        quibble with that; you say they are utterly indifferent,
    15        hence all the evidence we have had on it.  If that is the
    16        only effect of torture, I cannot see it does you any harm
    17        at all; it is your own case.
    18
    19   MR. MORRIS:  I mean -----
    20
    MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Is it not?  I am merely taking a few minutes
    22        now because, if I have misunderstood it, you might as well
    23        tell me now and when I brood on these things (as I do from
    24        time to time) I can turn it over in my mind.
    25
    26   MR. MORRIS:  The point is, it is subjective, you know, opinion
    27        about what an animal feels if it is living in bad
    28        conditions.  Whether or not the Plaintiffs are utterly
    29        indifferent or not is arguably irrelevant.  I mean, the
    30        point is, are the conditions for animals, you know, such
    31        that a person is entitled to say that should not happen,
    32        that must be torture for them.  Whether the Plaintiffs have
    33        a policy or do not have a policy and whether they apply it
    34        or whether it has any real effect in ensuring that animals,
    35        you know, is purely a matter of opinion.  That is the point
    36        we are saying.  Mr. Rampton did go on in the following
    37        days, and they are in the sheets which he disclosed ---
    38
    39   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Yes, give me the reference.
    40
    MR. MORRIS:  -- he referred to, to try to say he had never said
    42        that torture and murder was a matter of opinion.  For
    43        example, I am sorry, I have day 79 here -----
    44
    45   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Yes, give me the date, if you can.  I
    46        remember that because I looked -----
    47
    48   MR. RAMPTON:  My Lord, it is 27th January.  Once again
    49        Mr. Morris, as the Defendants habitually do in the course
    50        of this case, has misrepresented what I said.  It is the 
    51        top of page 73 of 27th January. 
    52 
    53   MS. STEEL:  I think Mr. Rampton should sit down.
    54
    55   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Look, I am going to stop the discussion if we
    56        have squabbles.  Let us have a sensible argument about it
    57         ---
    58
    59   MR. RAMPTON:  My Lord, it is there in black and white.
    60