Day 205 - 17 Jan 96 - Page 14
1 MR. JUSTICE BELL: -- largely, with a view to helping me
2 understand what the issues are.
3
4 MS. STEEL: If I can just say in my defence, seeing as I appear
5 to be criticised for making that comment just now, that
6 whenever Mr. Rampton is making a submission, if we say
7 something we are told: "You wait until your turn".
8
9 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Let us continue with the argument.
10 27th January 1995.
11
12 MR. RAMPTON: My Lord, it is page 73.
13
14 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Yes.
15
16 MR. MORRIS: Ms. Steel says at the top of the page -- I have not
17 got the previous page -- "Mr. Rampton did say at the
18 beginning of the case -- this is on day 79 -- despite the
19 fact that what was originally in the Statement of Claim,
20 torture and murder was a matter of opinion", which is the
21 basis of what he said in his opening speech and on day 30.
22 That was the effect of what he said at the beginning of the
23 case between those two periods.
24
25 Mr. Rampton denies it and says that Ms. Steel is not
26 accurate. Then there is an argument about that. So, all
27 we are saying is that Mr. Rampton was saying we did not
28 remember what had been said earlier on in the case. We
29 just felt that we had remembered accurately what was being
30 said earlier on in the case and compounded by the removal
31 of the words "torture" and "murder" from the Statement of
32 Claim.
33
34 So, there is no need for him to go on because the following
35 references are similar, where Mr. Rampton denies what he
36 said and that we say: "Oh, we cannot remember the exact
37 dates", et cetera, but the effect of it is that we do
38 consider, and maybe it is not something that could be ruled
39 on or even submitted at this stage, but it will be our
40 opinion at the end that we do not have to justify the words
41 "torture" and "murder" because they are clearly matters of
42 opinion. It is up to us what we argue about the rest of
43 the matters, but that is basically it.
44
45 But we did feel that we were being criticised by
46 Mr. Rampton for not remembering things accurately. He has
47 helpfully provided the references for that. So, we do feel
48 -- it is my last point before Ms. Steel comes up -- that
49 in general when we make a submission or when we speak or
50 remember things, it is assumed that Mr. Rampton remembers
51 things clearly or puts over the case clearly and that we,
52 because we are not trained, somehow have some kind of
53 inferior memory or point of view but -----
54
55 MR. JUSTICE BELL: That is certainly not an assumption I have
56 made because, as there is bound to be in any case, there
57 are occasions when the advocates on both sides, and your
58 advocates in your present form, I know you are parties as
59 well, but so far in this case you have been speaking as
60 advocates on your own behalf. It is important that we
