Day 251 - 17 May 96 - Page 15

     
     1   MR. MORRIS:  I do not know if you have a copy of the statement
     2        that was sent to you as well by the Land Parcel
     3        Commission.  Can you speak Portuguese?
     4        A.  Yes, I speak Portuguese as well as I speak English,
     5        although still with a bit of an English accent, but I am as
     6        confident in the language as I am in English.
     7
     8   Q.   Have you had a chance to check?  I believe you only got
     9        this yesterday or something, but you had the chance to
    10        check, have you, the areas, or some of the areas, that are
    11        mentioned on the Morganti statement yet?
    12        A.  Perhaps we should, this commission, the Pastoral Land
    13        Commission, is a branch of the Catholic Church in Brazil
    14        and it has been the most important institution, body, for
    15        collecting and recording land conflicts in Brazil for the
    16        last 20 years.  I think it has had an extraordinarily
    17        important role because some of these areas, particularly in
    18        the Amazon, are very, very remote and there have been, as I
    19        said, thousands of cases of peasant families being turned
    20        off the land and of workers on these ranches being held in
         extraordinarily bad conditions.  There have been
    22        denunciations, there have been proven cases of slavery on
    23        some of these ranches, and it is through the work of this
    24        Pastoral Land Commission that some of these abuses have
    25        come to light.  During the years of military dictatorship
    26        in Brazil from '64 to '85 it was the only institution with
    27        the backing of the powerful Catholic Church that could
    28        actually stand up and defend the rights of some of the
    29        peasant families and the workers on the ranches.  So, they
    30        have archives showing where the land conflicts are and
    31        where cases of serious labour abuses have occurred.
    32
    33   Q.   The list from the PLC, which you had in your hand, would
    34        that be a comprehensive list of all disputes in those
    35        areas?
    36        A.  No, it would be the best list you could find in Brazil,
    37        but as the Land Commission itself repeatedly says in its
    38        annual reports, this is only the tip of the iceberg.  There
    39        are numerous conflicts, numerous cases of peasant families
    40        being evicted, numerous cases of slavery which actually
         nobody hears about, but they have done as best they can and
    42        this is the best account, the best source, to go to if you
    43        are looking for ----
    44
    45   Q.   If we look at the PLC document first which you describe as
    46        the tip of the iceberg.
    47
    48   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  When you say 'the PLC' document, what to you
    49        mean by that?
    50 
    51   MR. MORRIS:  The Pastoral Land Commission, that is the one that 
    52        is in Portuguese. 
    53
    54   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  That is why I am looking for 'the PLC', but
    55        since it is in Portuguese that is not the way it comes out?
    56        A.  Do you want me to translate?
    57
    58   MR. MORRIS:  Just let me ask you the question first?
    59        A.  Sorry.
    60