Many posters have pointed out that the Right often mischaracterizes Socialism. Typical mistakes include blaming Socialism for Stalin's murders, confusing the German National Socialists (Nazis) with democratic Socialism, and using the terrorist acts comitted by a few "Socialist" revoloutionaries to discredit the entire Socialist economic theory.Some poster have even gone so far as to say that we are debating a theoretical construct "because a real Socialist state has never existed".
I accept this. We are talking about what system we *should* have and should limit our real-world examples to carefully chosen instances of a specific point.
I ask that the leftists on these boards do the same. Consider The Everette Citizen's post:
: Here is the capitalist "incentive" program as it currently exists:
: Child laborer in "third world" country:
: If I stop working I will get a beating.
: Adult laborer in "third world" country:
: If I stop working I will starve. If I try to organize with my fellow
: workers I will get a beating, or shot.
: Despotic ruler of "third world" country:
: If I keep labor costs low enough, uncle sam will supply me with weaponry
: and protection, as well as kick-backs from all the companies relocating
: to my slave camp.
*** I know of no Capitalist Third World countries. Capitalism includes the freedom of workers to organize and strike. As I have posted many times before, America's foriegn policy has nothing to do with Capitalism. Similar "imperialist" policies have been pursued by nations with all sorts of economic systems. ***
: Typical American worker with an AFL type labor union:
: If I work 60 hours this week I can buy the car I need to get to work,
: and a nice stereo. If I support uncle sam's foreign policies, he'll
: televise the next war on pay-per-view tv for me. If the "competition's"
: workers go out on strike, we'll scab 'em and I'll make enough dough to
: afford pay-per-view tv.
*** An "AFL-Type" Union would never scab. That's why they're so strong. That's why they're called "Unions". ***
: Typical manager of american company:
: If I keep labor costs low enough, the boss' boss' boss might decide to
: keep the company here, within a two hour drive of my tract house.
: Otherwise, I'll have to commute from timbukthree, or starve.
*** This is one of only two examples in this post that are anywhere near true. Managers have little job security (but get fairly high wages to compensate). I once worked for a large American auto company. Often when a unionized line worker was offered a promotion to management he would refuse. The money would be better, but many preferred the security of the union. ***
: The Boss' boss' boss:
: If I can squeeze another 20 million dollars out of my slaves, I can buy
: another home in Hawaii, and a nice big yacht to take me there. Then a
: few of my servants can wait on me there, too.
*** This is simple propaganda. The "Boss' boss' boss'" squeezes his customers, not his workers. The workers are always free to quit and the customers are free not to buy. ***
: The worker who knows what the real deal is:
: If we organize one big union, and realize our only "competition" is with
: a lousy system based on greed and priveledge, then we'll fold our arms
: until we put the bosses back to work!
*** The Teamsters Union folded their arms this year and won concessions from UPS Corporation. This happens all the time without Socialism. ***
- nat
: Mike, The Everett Citizen
